The Senedd met by video-conference at 13:29 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Welcome, everyone, to the Plenary meeting. Before we begin, I need to set out a few points. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's meeting, and these are set out on your agenda. I wish to remind Members that Standing Orders relating to order in Plenary meetings apply, of course, to this meeting.

1. Questions to the First Minister

The first item this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Darren Millar.

Flood Defences

Darren Millar AC: 1. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the adequacy of flood defences in Clwyd West? OQ57361

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, flood defence adequacy is assessed by Natural Resources Wales and local authorities in Wales. They then plan, promote and deliver schemes to reduce flood risk in their areas. The Welsh Government sets national policy and provides funding, including £5.24 million for schemes in Clwyd West in this financial year.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. I am delighted that money is indeed being awarded to improve flood defences in Clwyd West. One of those areas that is down for improvement very soon is the coastal strip between Towyn and Kinmel Bay, which of course is extremely important as far as the visitor season is concerned, and where those coastal sea defences are protecting many thousands of properties and businesses. One of the concerns that has been raised with me about the plans, which have now been published, for the improvement of the sea defences in this area is that the plans simply aren't attractive enough for either the locals or the visitors who will be wanting to use the coastal path and the coastal belt as part of their local amenity for facilities. In addition to that, obviously, there's been a suspension of technical advice note 15 in terms of the implementation of the new technical advice note, which will afford a greater level of protection for homes and businesses in the future. What assurances can you give me, on behalf of the Welsh Government, that the people of Towyn and Kinmel Bay will get a decent level of flood protection in spite of the fact that the new technical advice note has not been implemented, and what assurances can you provide in relation to how attractive these flood defences can be, given the concerns about the fact that these are in a tourism resort area?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Darren Millar for those questions. I know what a close interest he takes in flood and coastal erosion issues in his constituency, and I know that, in his own personal history, he has direct experience of what it is to be flooded, so I know he brings a great deal of passion and expertise to these issues. I'm very glad that the Welsh Government has been able to review the outline business case for the Llanddulais-Kinmel Bay coastal scheme. We've been able to award Conwy council £450,000-worth in funding for the full business case and the detailed design. I hope that that will be an opportunity to take into account the points that the Member has made about, as well as the urgent need to protect people's homes, the coast being a national asset here in Wales—it brings many visitors—and that that work needs to be done sympathetically in order to make sure that those very important economic aspects are sustained into the future. I thank the Member for what he said about TAN 15, Llywydd. The implementation date has been put back by 18 months so that we can make sure that the basis on which that advice will be founded—the maps and so on—is in the best possible order. But the purpose of TAN 15 is to make sure that houses are not built in future in places that put them at direct risk of flooding. There is no standing back at all inside the Welsh Government from the underlying purpose of TAN 15 and the revised advice note that will be published. We want to get it as good as we possibly can. The delay will allow us to work further with local authorities on the detailed information that lies behind the policy, and then it will need to do what Darren Millar says, in making sure that it protects those communities that otherwise would be at risk.

I need to check whether I can be heard at this point. Can anybody—? Yes, I can be heard. Diolch. My problem is that I can’t hear you. That is not a licence to do whatever you want, but I will call the next question. Question 2, Rhys ab Owen.

Recycling Rates

Rhys ab Owen AS: 2. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with Cardiff Council regarding recycling rates in Cardiff? OQ57356

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you to Rhys ab Owen for the question. Ministers and officials have had direct discussions with Cardiff Council on their recycling performance, and those discussions are ongoing.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you, First Minister. It is disappointing that recycling rates in Cardiff are amongst the worst in Wales. Of the three local authorities that failed to deliver the target of 64 per cent in the Waste (Wales) Measure 2010, Cardiff is the worst by far, at 55.8 per cent. And I’m sure that the closure of recycling centres in Wedal Road and Waungron Road in recent years has had a detrimental but expected impact on recycling rates. But it’s not just that the recycling rates are low, it’s not clear what kind of recycling is happening. It’s environmentally and economically important that waste is used here in Wales for different purposes rather than being exported, particularly, far too often, to deprived nations. So, how can we increase recycling rates in Cardiff and ensure that Welsh waste is recycled and repurposed here in Wales? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you for those supplementary questions. Cardiff Council is working hard to do more to get their recycling rates to the place where we would all want to see them. There will be a new strategy before the cabinet in Cardiff Council this week and, as I’m sure the Member knows, they are going to pilot a number of new approaches in Cardiff West, which I represent. In Radyr and Llandaff, in January, there will be a new system in place to try and put measures in place to improve the recycling rates in the city. Officials have worked hard with Cardiff Council to see what is behind these figures, and there are things that are particularly pertinent to Cardiff—the number of HMOs, for example, is challenging for Cardiff Council, but there is a new plan in place, and I am confident that that will have a positive impact on the figures.
And I know, Llywydd, that the Minister Julie James has responded to questions on the floor of the Assembly and has provided detailed information as to where recyclate goes. More than half of it is dealt with here in Wales, and around 30 per cent goes over the border to England, and there are some things that go abroad. But we do have plans to cut back the amount that is exported and to do more with all the things that we want to recycle here in Wales.

I'm going to call Joel James now.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Llywydd. Cardiff Council, as the previous Member has explained, has fallen consistently short when meeting the recycling targets set out by the Welsh Government, and the council's predicted that it will have to invest in secondary recycling in order to meet them. Perversely, they do not have the budget to implement secondary recycling, and the council predicts that the estimated fine they will incur, because they are not meeting their recycling targets, will be in excess of £10 million by 2025. As the First Minister will no doubt agree, it is in everyone's interests to see Cardiff Council meet these recycling targets, and for the council to be able to invest in secondary recycling. Indeed, they could even generate revenue for themselves by making this investment and having access to high-quality recycling markets that this investment will open.Therefore, can the First Minister explain what funding is available to councils like Cardiff that allow them to make these improvements, and what investment has the Welsh Government made in obtaining access to these high-quality recycling markets that the Welsh economy could benefit from?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I agree with the Member that there are opportunities for Cardiff as a local authority in doing what I know the local authority itself wants to do, and that is to diversify the policies that it has in place and to provide better services for its own residents, and indeed, potentially, to be able to provide services for others as well. I think I ought to explain, Llywydd, that a fining system is set out in our regulations. Ministers have discretion in this limited way: Ministers can decide either to fine in full or not to fine at all—there is no intermediate position available in our regulations, and nor do Ministers have discretion over the quantum of fining. That is determined by a formula that, again, the regulations set out. So, there is nothing inevitable about local authorities being fined, and, in the past, Ministers have always made judgments on the basis as to whether or not local authorities have credible plans in place to put themselves where the vast majority of local authorities are in Wales, and that is in compliance with the target.
Since devolution, Llywydd, the Welsh Government has invested £1 billion in household recycling, and a great deal of that money goes to local authorities to support them in creating the conditions in which the very good figures that we see in Wales exceed our target on a Wales-wide basis, with a number of local authorities exceeding the 70 per cent target that lies beyond us and wouldn't have been possible without a very significant investment. Cardiff has benefited from it, but it's a system that has to be fair to all local authorities and make sure that the progress—the very, very significant progress that all local authorities, including Cardiff, have made—can be sustained into the future.

As you can tell from some frantic changes of headphones on my part, I'm struggling with hearing everything that's going on at the moment, and that's a very dangerous position for a Llywydd to be in. So, I'm going to need to call a short technical break, and we'll resume as quickly as my issue can be resolved. So, a short technical break.

Plenary was suspended at 13:42.

The Senedd reconvened at 13:52, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

We are ready to restart. Apologies for that technical break. I now call on the leader of the Welsh Conservatives to pose questions to the First Minister—Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Today, First Minister, the first real-world study on vaccines against the omicron infection has been published. It's important to note that this data is from the first three weeks of the outbreak, so it might change, but it is the first serious study of its kind. The findings show that the virus variant is 29 per cent milder, that two doses of the Pfizer vaccine is 30 per cent effective at reducing transmission, and, importantly, that two doses of the Pfizer vaccine is 70 per cent effective at reducing hospitalisation.
First Minister, I appreciate that this data has only just been published this morning, but can I have your reaction to this study, and that of your advisers? And what impact will this information have on potential plans for imposing restrictions on Friday, and ultimately averting the complete lockdown of Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Andrew R.T. Davies for that. I'm aware of the study. As he says, it's the first study of its kind, but it is inevitably—as I think that he himself suggested—therefore preliminary. It tells us something about the early period. It doesn't tell us yet about what happens as the omicron variant takes hold and as more information emerges on the progress of the disease. It's also a study in a South African context, which is different in many ways to our own. So, encouraging in its way, but not to be relied upon as a strong basis for policy decision making. And there is a sense in which the issues that it reports—the severity of the illness and the extent to which it escapes the current vaccines—are second-order questions. Because if the transmissibility of the virus is of the rate that we are currently seeing in Scotland and in London, then, even if it is milder, and even if there is a slightly better efficacy of the vaccine, there still will be a very, very large number of people falling ill, and a percentage of those people will fall seriously ill, and those large numbers will drive people into needing the help of the NHS. So, a preliminary study, not to be over-relied on, and, even if its grounds for some preliminary optimism are true, it won’t save us from the onslaught that this new variant is likely to create across the United Kingdom and in Wales as well.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister, and it was good to get some optimism from that report that came out this morning.
Obviously, another strand of work that the Welsh Government is undertaking is the roll-out of the booster campaign, and the health Minister has been doing a press conference this morning, talking about everyone will have an offer by the end of December, not necessarily have their appointment by the end of December. How far into the new year will people be expected to receive those offers before they get the booster? Because that’s a really important consideration. There’s one thing getting the offer; there’s another thing getting the booster.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, of course, the leader of the opposition is absolutely right in that. Our offer is the same as it is anywhere in the United Kingdom—it is to make sure that, by the end of this month, everybody’s had an offer. The offer will extend into the new year to the shortest possible extent. But that is not entirely in the hands of the Government, because there are two things in play here. There is the rate at which we can step up the supply of vaccination—and a huge amount is being done to make sure that we have vaccination centres open more hours, vaccination centres with more lanes, vaccination centres with walk-in capacity as well as appointment capacity, just to give some examples. But, as well as the supply side, there is the demand side—the extent to which people come forward to take up the appointments that they are offered. And if people don't come forward in the numbers we need to see, or if people ask for their appointments to be rearranged, then that will push that date further into the new year. So, if there's a single message that I would want to get across in today's session—I hope that many Senedd Members will help in this, in passing that message on as well—it is that there is nothing more important that any person can do than to keep that appointment that they will be offered. Because the more people who keep the appointment, the faster we will get through the numbers, and the fewer the number of days we will need in the new year to complete the programme.

Andrew RT Davies AC: We’ve had these preliminary results this morning, First Minister, from the survey in South Africa. We’ve also got the booster campaign, which I’ve just questioned you on, and the roll-out of that booster campaign, but also, in the press conference that the health Minister took this morning, she highlighted the impact on services—general health services—whether they be primary, or elective surgery. But one thing Chris Whitty addressed the UK Cabinet over this morning was the impact on the NHS workforce of potential infection rates. Have you got any modelling that would show what that might translate, in Welsh terms, to in NHS staff here in Wales who, potentially, could, obviously, be off work for some considerable period of time, with infection rates as Chris Whitty has been highlighting this morning to the UK Cabinet? And if you have that information, are you able to share it with us, so that we can understand the impact on NHS services across Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank Andrew R.T. Davies for that, because that’s a really important point. At the most difficult part of this spectrum, we could see largely elevated numbers of people needing help from health and social care services meeting a service where there are fewer people available to provide the help that is needed, because those members of staff will be exposed to the impact of the omicron variant alongside everybody else. Now, the good news is that, in those populations, we already have very high coverage with the booster vaccine. So, that will protect that workforce. But if we see a very large wave, affecting very large numbers of people, then people who work in our health and social care system will be swept up in it as well. Even today, 11 per cent of our GP workforce are not in work because of the delta variant of coronavirus. So, if you extrapolate that and imagine the impact of an omicron wave of the sort that Chris Whitty will have been describing to the UK Cabinet, then you can see that the impact is potentially very significant. Now, all of that is being modelled through the work that we do with Swansea University and with our local health boards, and action is being taken—as I say, particularly by prioritising those staff for the booster campaign—to protect as many of those people as possible. Some changes to the self-isolation requirements to see whether people can be safely back in the workplace again as quickly as possible will also be part of that whole consideration. But, every single one of us can do things to protect ourselves, and by protecting ourselves we protect other people, and that includes the people we will be relying upon to see us through if the wave of omicron hits us as some of the models suggest it might.

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There is some optimistic news in the emerging evidence that Andrew R.T. Davies referred to, but it also finds that two doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine provide zero protection against the omicron variant, although the same caveats apply to that evidence—a small sample, preliminary findings, et cetera. It does find that, even in the case of AstraZeneca, a booster jab would increase the level of protection to 71 per cent. Obviously, getting the booster jab for everyone by the end of the month, I think, is a very important goal, but is there some consideration being given, in the light of this evidence, to giving priority to those who received the AstraZeneca vaccination?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, Adam Price is quite right that the evidence on the efficacy of the two doses is not great for Pfizer or AstaZeneca—even Pfizer, in that study, is around 30 per cent protection—which is why the booster programme is so absolutely essential. Because two doses of AstraZeneca don't protect you; two doses of AstraZeneca and a booster takes that protection up to over 70 per cent. Now, we will continue to follow the advice of the JCVI in Wales about how we prioritise calling people forward for vaccination with the booster. There is some congruence between the JCVI list of priorities and people who got AZ in the first two rounds of vaccination. So, these things have some consistency with one another. We will work our way down the age ranges, and you get to a point in people's 30s where we were actually using Pfizer rather than AZ for most people. So, I think sticking with the JCVI advice, calling people forward in order of clinical vulnerability, is the right thing to do, and to a significant, not a perfect extent, but to a significant extent that will address the issue that Adam Price has just raised with me.

Adam Price AC: First Minister, it's been reported that the Scottish Government may today be announcing some changes in social distancing around household mixing, but in the form of advice rather than regulations. I was wondering whether that is a policy option that is under consideration by the Welsh Government. And previously you said, in considering going up the alert status levels, you would focus on leading indicators like case numbers, rather than lagging indicators like deaths and hospitalisations. I was wondering, given the suggestion that maybe the hospitalisations are not tracking case numbers quite as closely as they have done with previous waves, based on the South African data, whether you plan to take a kind of more holistic view, looking at leading and lagging indicators in deciding what would be the most proportionate response.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the leader of Plaid Cymru for both of those points. I've had a series of opportunities in the last few days to hear from the First Minister of Scotland and to get some insight into the way in which the Scottish Government's Cabinet will be discussing these matters today. I think the approach of guidance, strong guidance, is available to us and will be something that we will wish to conisder as a Cabinet during this week.
Over the course of the pandemic, people in Wales have demonstrated, I believe, that they are very keen to hear the advice that they get through the chief medical officer, from our chief scientist, and as it's relayed by Ministers, and providing them with good advice is certainly part of the repertoire that we have for trying to help people to keep themselves safe. We will always take a rounded set of indicators into account when coming to our decisions, and that does include both hospitalisation and mortality—[Inaudible.]

I think I'm going to need to cut across you, First Minister. I'm sorry, but there seems to be a problem with your sound at the moment. Let me take a quick pause. Let me ask you to try again, and if not, we'll have to—. Just try again, First Minister.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd—[Inaudible.]

No. We do have a problem. We'll have to take another technical break to resume the First Minister's sound. A technical break, then, again. Apologies for this, Members.

Plenary was suspended at 14:06.
The Senedd reconvened at 14:08, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

So, we return now to the First Minister's response to Adam Price's question. First Minister.

Mark Drakeford AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I was simply reiterating a point that I'd made earlier to Andrew R.T. Davies, that even if hospitalisation rates were to be lower with omicron, if the raw numbers of people falling ill with it are sharply escalated, that will by itself result in large numbers of people needing hospitalisation.

Adam Price AC: COVID is an airborne disease, of course, and we know good ventilation and air purification are very effective in combating infection. Is there more, First Minister, we could be doing on this front? Belgium has installed carbon dioxide monitors in schools and, indeed, workplaces to see if ventilation needs to be improved. Ireland this week has announced a further €60 million investment in air purification devices in schools, using a mixture of high-efficiency particulate air and ultraviolet light. Given the estimated 3,500 children who continue to suffer the symptoms of long COVID in Wales, isn't this an investment in our children's health, as well as everyone else's, that we should also be making?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank Adam Price for that important point. Of course, we have carbon dioxide monitors now available here in Wales and being deployed in schools, but there is more that can be done on ventilation. It is a very important part of the way in which we can keep one another safe. The chief medical officer and the chief nursing officer wrote out to the health service in Wales only in the last few days relaying further advice on the hierarchy of actions that can be taken to make sure that people who work and people who are being treated in our hospitals and other closed settings of that sort are kept as safe as possible, and ventilation was one of the issues that they emphasised in the letter that they have set out. We continue to review the evidence from other parts of the world on actions that can be effective in assisting in schools and in other settings—workplaces, for example, as well as hospitals and care homes—to assist in improving ventilation and monitoring the quality of air. And where there are ideas or practical solutions that we find elsewhere, we'll certainly be open to learning from them and seeing what we can do to support their implementation.

COVID Vaccine Patents

Jenny Rathbone AC: 3. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government regarding waiving the patents of COVID vaccines? OQ57377

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Welsh Government supports plans to relax intellectual property rights so that patented vaccines can be made available to low-income countries to help mitigate pressures caused by the COVID-19 pandemic. We have conveyed that view directly to the UK Government as responsibility for intellectual property rights remains a reserved matter.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you. First, I'd like to refer Members and the public to my declared shares that I still have in AstraZeneca, although not for much longer. I'm disappointed that neither AstraZeneca nor Pfizer have responded to my request for an explanation as to why, in the middle of a global pandemic, these multinational drug companies haven't waived their patents on these life-saving vaccines. There is, of course, a precedent to this, for waiving the patents on HIV drugs when Nelson Mandela exposed their failure to do that, which caused a global outcry. In the United States, the National Institutes of Health is taking Moderna to court. Are you aware of any plans by the UK Government to take AstraZeneca to court to force them to do the right thing, given that no-one will be safe from COVID until enough people have been vaccinated across the world to suppress COVID to manageable levels?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I'm not aware of any such actions by the UK Government, and I will be very surprised indeed if they were prepared to take any, because they continue to block proposals for waiving intellectual property rights at the World Trade Organization. I know that Jenny Rathbone will be very well aware that it's a year—more than a year now—since South Africa and India proposed a temporary waiver for intellectual property rights on COVID-19 vaccines and took that proposition to the World Trade Organization. In May of this year, the United States declared themselves in favour of such a waiver, and well over 100 countries have now put their weight behind that. A relatively small number of countries around the world continues to block those discussions, and the UK Government is one of them. The WTO last met at the end of October, and I'm afraid that the reports were that negotiations on a waiver are deadlocked and direction-less because of that handful of countries. That is why I have written to the Prime Minister urging him to remove the United Kingdom from that position; that we should support the position put forward by South Africa and India, but by the United States as well, because that would unlock the position where we wouldn't be reliant upon the goodwill of individual pharmaceutical companies, but there would be a concerted across-the-globe position where intellectual property rights would not be a barrier to getting the rest of the world vaccinated. I'm reminded of what the former Prime Minister Gordon Brown said only a few days ago: that the well-resourced west is playing Russian roulette with COVID-19, and that while we don't make the effort we need to make to make sure that everybody is vaccinated, somewhere in the world, a variant is brewing that may be one that completely escapes vaccine protection, that will be more serious than the versions we currently are dealing with. It's in everybody's interest, exactly in the way that Jenny Rathbone said, to make sure that the whole of the world's population has the protection of vaccination, and a temporary waiver on intellectual property rights would be one important step in helping to secure that outcome.

Russell George AC: I do know, as well, responding to some of the—. Can you hear me, Llywydd? My visual has disappeared.

We can hear you, Russell, although I can't see you at this point. Ah, yes, you're back on the screen. Carry on.

Russell George AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, I'm aware that the UK has donated the majority of any vaccines that are surplus to the UK, of course, to COVAX to support developing countries, but I understand something different to you, First Minister, in terms of World Trade Organization members' developing views on a proposed waiver of some of the provisions of the trade-related aspect of intellectual property rights agreement to tackle COVID-19. The UK Government, as I understand it, is actively engaging positively in that. But can I ask, First Minister, do you foresee any negative issues regarding waiving the patents of vaccinations, what are the unintended consequences of that, and how can these issues be overcome?

Mark Drakeford AC: First of all, can I say that in my letter to the Foreign Secretary on this matter earlier in the year, and more recently to the Prime Minister, I was at pains to say how strongly the Welsh Government supports the actions that the UK Government has led in relation to the COVAX programme and the efforts that the UK Government has made to lead action across the world in that regard? So, I want to acknowledge that and to repeat it this afternoon.
What are the downsides of a temporary waiver on intellectual property rights? Well, I think the main one is that while I think it is a necessary thing to do, by itself it is not a sufficient thing to do, because there will be countries that simply lack the infrastructure to use the intellectual property that will then be available to them. Sometimes the intellectual property side is described as having the recipe. Well, if you don't have a cooker, you don't have the pots and pans and you don't have everything else you need, you can't turn the recipe into a usable product. That is why, in the very modest way that the Welsh Government has been able to offer assistance, our assistance in places like Namibia and Uganda, for example, has focused on making sure that we assist those places to put into place those infrastructure things that allow countries to make use of vaccines as vaccines become available, because if you don't have trained nurses, or you don't have vaccine centres, or you don't have personal protective equipment, then even if you have the vaccine, you can't make those vaccines work for your local population. If there is an argument about a downside to a patent waiver, I think that is the only one that I would place much credence on. It's that, by itself, if you don't have everything else you need to make a vaccine programme effective, having intellectual property rights on vaccines waived doesn't guarantee that you've got everything you need on the ground to deliver such a programme.

Delyth Jewell AC: First Minister, Boris Johnson has told people living in the UK that two vaccines are no longer enough to protect against the omicron variant. In Africa, 70 per cent of front-line health workers haven't had one dose. That, as we've been discussing, is in large part because of the intransigence of Governments like the UK and Switzerland, blocking attempts to waive patents on vaccines, when, as you've said, First Minister, even the President of big pharma-friendly USA, Joe Biden, is in favour of a waiver. Do you believe it's the case, First Minister, that the UK Government's policy of blocking this attempt to vaccinate the world not only cruelly and unnecessarily endangers lives abroad, but also puts lives in danger here in the UK from dangerous variants that are likely to develop in countries less able to obtain vaccines?

Mark Drakeford AC: I entirely agree with the substantive point that Delyth Jewell is making. None of us is safe until all of us are safe. And that's the case for making sure that rich countries like the United Kingdom play our part—our full part—in assisting the rest of the world. It isn't simply a matter of generosity, it is a matter of enlightened self-interest. But until we can get the rest of the world in that position, then exactly as Delyth Jewell said, and as I quoted earlier from former Prime Minister Gordon Brown, somewhere in the world another variant will be brewing and, next time, we might not be so fortunate that the defences we've built up so far will be as effective in responding to that variant as we've been able to mobilise defences against the alpha variant, the delta variant and now the next great effort to deal with the omicron variant. The whole of the world needs to be protected in order that each one of us can be protected.

The Omicron Variant and Hospitality Businesses

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 4. Will the First Minister make a statement on the impact of the Omicron variant of COVID-19 on hospitality businesses in Wales? OQ57352

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that, Llywydd. The direct impact of the new variant on Welsh hospitality businesses has, to date, been minimal. Indirect impact through changed customer behaviour is harder to assess. Given high levels of uncertainty, the Welsh Government will monitor developments closely and respond swiftly should that be required.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. Of course, you know that tourism is the backbone of the economy in Aberconwy, as it is in other constituencies. The queen of Welsh resorts, Llandudno, also has the potential—and this is according to a recent report I've been reading—to see the number of day visitors increase from 2.88 million in 2018 to 4.8 million in 2045, overnight trips increase by 120,000, and the economic impact rise from £388 million in 2018 to over £0.5 billion by 2045. Our hospitality industry has really shouldered a lot of the previous variants. Now, our local businesses are suffering lots and lots of cancellations. One entrepreneur has lost bookings worth £25,000 and is having to consider laying off all eight members of their staff, and this is repeated in the numerous e-mails I've received. So, whilst they're still awaiting access to the £35 million fund that you've designed to help SMEs relaunch, develop, decarbonise and grow, is there any possibility, First Minister—and I have to ask—of your considering introducing another round of COVID-19 business support grants to help our businesses deal with what is likely to be a very problematic time for them?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for that, Llywydd, and I absolutely recognise the difficulties that hospitality are facing at this time. She will know that the Welsh Government has not changed any rules as far as COVID in Wales is concerned this week, but the news of the omicron variant is changing people's behaviour, and there's no doubt at all that that is having an impact upon business in the hospitality industry. I've had a series of discussions with UK Government colleagues over the weekend about what the Treasury might be prepared to do to support businesses affected in this way, because, as I know she will understand, this is an impact across the United Kingdom. Hospitality and tourism businesses everywhere are seeing this. 'Will we consider' is what the Member asked, and the answer to that is 'yes', of course we will consider what we might be able to do from our own resources. Then, we would definitely hope that the UK Government would be prepared to recognise the impact that the new variant is having more widely on those parts of the economy most directly affected.
I thank her for reading out the information on the potential future for Llandudno, a most fantastic resort. I know that she too will be interested in how we can create a future of that sort for somewhere like Llandudno in a way that encourages sustainable tourism. In parts of north Wales over this last summer where we saw very healthy visitor numbers, we also saw understandable concerns that if you don't grow numbers in the right way, you end up undermining the things that bring people to those areas in the first place. Those were very encouraging numbers that the Member shared with us earlier, and now the conversation will need to be about how we grow the industry in a way that gives it that sustainable ability to go on being attractive to people well into the future.

Jane Dodds AS: First Minister, I wanted to ask you about air quality. I know last week you actually responded to the Conservative leader by talking about the clean air Act, and I just wondered if you could put a very clear timetable, if that's okay, on your programme around introducing a clean air Act. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you to the Member for that question. We do have a timetable. It starts with the plan, through to the White Paper and all the way up to the final Act.

Mark Drakeford AC: While I know and have seen the timetable for that process—the plan early next year, the White Paper, the consultation, the arrival of a Bill on the floor of the Senedd later in the term—I don't have it in front of me, and I'm very happy to write to the Member setting out that timetable.FootnoteLink But I can give her an assurance, absolutely, that a timetable of that sort quite definitely has been worked on and we are on track to deliver it. During this Senedd term, in the way that we said at the Senedd elections, we will put a clean air Bill in front of the Senedd.

Information further to Plenary

Tackling Disadvantage

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 5. How will the Welsh Government help tackle structural health, social and economic disadvantage in areas of acute and multiple deprivation? OQ57355

Mark Drakeford AC: The Welsh Government mobilises actions across our responsibilities to tackle the structural determinants of health, social and economic disadvantage. To quote the Member in a recent Senedd debate, however, we're always having to do this whilst swimming against a UK Government
'that sweeps away the vulnerable and the low paid'.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, First Minister. I recognise that swimming against the tide, but there is so much more we can do with a Welsh Government programme as well that actively invests in these communities. I know that places like Caerau, great communities like Caerau in my constituency, were the first to see Flying Start investment. We had the investment in childcare for working families in places like the Nantyffyllon institute, the miners' institute, and pandemic support for school meals in the holidays, the Caerau Primary School investment, and so much more. But can I ask this Government for an assurance that as the years go by, we will sustain that level of investment in these people and these places that not only need it, but deserve it, so that everybody has the same opportunity in every part of Wales? They are valued places, valued people, and if we need to focus the investment there, then that should be the case.

Mark Drakeford AC: I'm absolutely able to give the Member that assurance. His own constituency is I think a fine example of the investments made by successive Labour Governments here in Wales to tackle structural disadvantage. Huw Irranca-Davies mentioned Flying Start, Llywydd; what a contrast between the way in which we have sustained and continued to invest in Flying Start in Wales while the parallel programme in England, which did such good work during the period of the last Labour Government in the UK, has simply been abandoned by the Conservatives in the last decade.
And it's more than just Flying Start; it is, as Huw Irranca-Davies has said, the way in which we have invested in childcare facilities for working families in places like Nantyffyllon. I know it was my predecessor, Carwyn Jones, as First Minister, who opened Caerau Primary School a new building for the young people of that area. And our investment in dealing with structural inequalities, Llywydd, has gone beyond what you might think of as the standard mainstream services as well. I know that Natural Resources Wales's largest investment in community woodland in Wales is in the Llynfi woodland in the Member's constituency—a new woodland grown on a former coal site.
But the other thing that I'm always really struck by in the Ogmore constituency, Llywydd, is the way in which action by public services is matched by outstanding community effort as well—the Skyline project, and I know the Member is a passionate supporter of that great development, and the Caerau Development Trust that he discussed with me recently, its astonishing breadth of activity and the sense of community enterprise that it brings. It's great to see, Llywydd, by the way, that the trust's community centre is being used by police community support officers. And that's another investment that the constituency will see from a Labour Government.
Of course when you are dealing with deeply ingrained structural inequalities, there is more that needs to be done. But our ability to mobilise the power of Government, alongside the commitment of local communities, is the way in which I think we can see progress, and in the Member's own constituency in the examples he has cited this afternoon, I think you see that absolutely in action.

Motor Neurone Disease

Peter Fox AS: 6. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve the lives of those living with motor neurone disease? OQ57374

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Peter Fox for the question. The Welsh Government continues to work with the neurological conditions implementation group to improve services for all those with neurological conditions, including motor neurone disease. We are also working closely with local authorities to determine what more can be done to improve the lives of people living with this cruel disease.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, First Minister. Members of the Senedd sent a very clear message last month during my debate, where they overwhelmingly voted to end the current unfair adaptation process where MND sufferers have become entrapped in inescapable homes because they're unable to access the necessary support in time. MND sufferers are clear that the current system needs replacing with a non-means-tested, fast-tracked one, and I welcome the fact that the health Minister and, indeed, the Welsh Government support this too. But now we need to see a tangible outcome for MND sufferers following that unanimous support, I believe.And, to that end, First Minister, will the Government agree to ask, indeed urge, local authorities to enact their discretionary powers to apply a fast-tracked process for housing adaptations for people living with MND in Wales, as every month that goes by without that fast-tracked process, people with MND will continue to suffer? Thank you, First Minister.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Peter Fox for that. His predecessor, as the Member of the Senedd for the Monmouthshire constituency, Nick Ramsay, was also a passionate advocate of the needs of people who suffer from motor neurone disease. On the specific issue of physical adaptations, three of the four programmes that the Welsh Government now supports are non-means-tested in nature. The large-scale adaptations for the disabled facilities grant are means-tested, but they are not always the form of adaptation that is most suited to people suffering from MND given the progressive nature of that disease and the unpredictable pattern that it follows for individuals.
But the Enable programme, where the Welsh Government recently increased the funding that we give to local authorities on the basis that it should be free for the small and medium adaptations that the Enable programme supports,should be free to the user, has been welcomed by almost all local authorities. Monmouthshire is one of those authorities that has changed its procedures to make sure that people won't be charged for those, nor are people charged for the physical adaptations grant and the rapid response adaptation programme. So, I hope that, by supporting those programmes with significant annual sums of money, it will allow local authorities to have a fast-track approach to people who are living with motor neurone disease in Wales. Our figures suggest that there are about 200 people with the condition in Wales at any one time. That means, for any local authority, you ought to be able to have a direct and personal approach to the needs of that individual. The numbers are small enough to have a personal plan for that individual and then to fast-track the adaptations that can make such a difference for them.

The 111 Service

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 7. Will the First Minister make a statement on the future of the 111 service in north Wales? OQ57392

Mark Drakeford AC: The NHS 111 Wales service launched in north Wales for all urgent healthcare issues in June 2021. We are investing additional resources into both telephony and online elements of the service, to build resilience for the winter period and beyond, and we continue to attract high-quality staff.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for your answer, First Minister. I have to say, there are serious concerns being expressed to me that the service is unable to cope with the volume of demand. The sense among nursing professionals is that the service is being overrun, with patients having to wait hours for a basic response. I've been told, for example, that, in the past few weeks, calls have gone unanswered, and one caller had to wait 600 minutes to be triaged. Now, some of these cases need to urgently be sent to the emergency department, but due to the backlog, of course, they're being lost and delayed, to the point where some are giving up. There are no paediatric specialists on the 111 service in the north, so cases involving children, when they finally do get through, are just being referred straight to the emergency department. Similarly, the 111 mental health hub doesn't have sufficient psychiatric specialism to deal with current demand. So, will you, First Minister, accept that the 111 service, which has now, as you say, replaced the GP out-of-hours service in north Wales, isn't delivering as it should, because that's the view expressed to me by very concerned health professionals with years of experience in the field?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I would always want to listen to concerns raised by such voices. I did make a direct inquiry of the health board, knowing that this question would be asked of me today, and was told that concerns of that sort hadn't been raised either by the people responsible for the service or by people delivering it, although the system everywhere in Wales is under huge pressure, and we're about to ask the people we rely on to provide the 111 service, in some instances, to be part of the new booster vaccination system. So, it is not a surprise—it cannot be a surprise—to anybody to find that the system is not always able to provide as timely a response to people as it would were we in calmer territory. I asked the health board as well whether it was receiving complaints from the public about the quality of the service, and they told me that complaints were running at less than one in every 1,000 users of the service. So, this is not for a minute to discount the important points that the Member has raised—and I'll make sure that they are conveyed to the health board—but I think there's probably more than one account of the way in which the service is trying to provide a quality response to the needs of people in north Wales, despite the very real demands that we are placing on the health service in the face of the global pandemic.

The Education Maintenance Allowance

Luke Fletcher AS: 8. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the education maintenance allowance? OQ57390

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, our commitment to the continuation of the education maintenance allowance is set out in our programme for government. Feedback from learners emphasises the importance of this support in helping them to continue their studies. EMA scheme rules are reviewed each year prior to opening the scheme to applications.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for that response, First Minister.

Luke Fletcher AS: In the first instance, I think it's important to reiterate actually what the First Minister has said in recognising that actually keeping EMA in place in Wales is providing much needed support for learners, and I welcome the commitment to protect EMA in the programme for government. But I was wondering whether or not the Government will be reviewing EMA, specifically the amount that's paid to students and the process of applying. Currently, the amount paid to learners is the same amount now as it was when I was in receipt of it, and it has remained at the same amount, which is £30 a week, since its introduction in 2004. Essentially, we haven't seen an increase in just shy of 20 years, so it hasn't accounted for inflation at all. If I could turn the First Minister's attention to Bridgend College, for just a moment, to illustrate a further point, in Bridgend College they usually have between 700 and 800 full-time further education learners who claim EMA. However, there are concerns that there are many more students who need access. As we know, EMA is means-tested, and many have raised with me that the forms are complex and difficult to understand. So, I would hope that, as the Government reviews EMA, these specific issues will be considered, moving forward.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I'd like to thank Luke Fletcher for those supplementary questions.

Mark Drakeford AC: We do, of course, keep the scheme under review. In the last year, prior to the pandemic—so, the last year you think would be a fair comparison—then, over 20,200 students were supported by the EMA scheme, at a cost of nearly £18 million. And, on top of that, the Welsh Government provides £6 million in the financial contingency fund, which further education colleges are able to use, precisely in order to give some additional flexibility over and above the means-tested nature of the EMA itself. I've seen the Bevan Foundation report, of course, about the fact that were we to uplift the EMA to maintain its real-terms value we'd need to go to £45. That would cost another £8.2 million a year, and if we were to raise the thresholds, to take account of the point that Mr Fletcher was making about some young people not being able to access it, that would take the additional investment required to over £10 million. And, I'm afraid, in all of these things, choices have to be made. The programme for government, including all the agreements that we have in the co-operation agreement between his party and mine, have identified the top priorities for investment as being free school meals, childcare and that range of other commitments that we've entered into together. And while we will, of course, keep under review the EMA, the current commitment is to sustain it into this Senedd term, and unless our settlements become significantly more generous than were set out in the comprehensive spending review, that's probably going to have to be where our ambition rests.

Mental Health Care

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 9. Will the First Minister make a statement on the provision of mental health care in Dwyfor Meirionnydd? OQ57383

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for his question. Supporting mental health is a priority for this Government, as set out in our 'Together for Mental Health' delivery plan. We are supporting mental health services in north Wales through the targeted intervention framework and through a substantial package of strategic support.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I thank the First Minister for that answer. A constituent, David Graves, has been waiting for an independent external review into the treatment and care of his mother on the Hergest ward for over three years now. Donna Ockenden, the author of the Ockenden report, was asked to hold the review by the health board in July 2018, but the health board didn't follow up on that request. Donna Ockenden has offered to hold the review once again. I know that because she told me personally some weeks ago. In 2018, the current health Minister wrote to the then health Minister insisting that the board contact Donna Ockenden to hold this independent external review. Now that the Holden report has been published, shouldn't I enable my constituent to close this sad chapter of his life by enabling Donna Ockenden to carry out this independent external review? Will you, First Minister, join with me in calling on the health board to contact Donna Ockenden in order to commission her to do this important work?

Mark Drakeford AC: I'd like to thank Mabon ap Gwynfor for those points. Of course, I am aware of the case of David Graves, and I sympathise with him on everything that has happened and the experiences that he's had. I've seen nothing from Donna Ockenden, if I'm honest. So, if she has made any suggestions, as I understand it, she hasn't raised that with the Government. So, I'm not in a position to support something without seeing exactly what she is suggesting. If anything has come to hand, I'm happy to look at what she intends to do.

And finally, question 10, James Evans.

James Evans MS: Am I unmuted? I think so.

Yes, you are.

James Evans MS: Thank you. Diolch, Llywydd.

Veterans Commissioner

James Evans MS: 10. Will the First Minister provide an update on the discussions between the Welsh Government and the UK Government on the appointment on a veterans commissioner for Wales? OQ57360

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the appointment of a veterans commissioner for Wales is an initiative of the UK Government, announced without any prior discussion or notification with the Welsh Government. Nevertheless, this week the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership is meeting the Minister for Defence People and Veterans to discuss this proposed appointment.

James Evans MS: Diolch, First Minister. Brecon and Radnorshire is a proud military community, and I recently mentioned in the Chamber the important role the military plays, both socially and economically, in my constituency. I regularly speak with veterans who tell me there is a need for this focused role in our political system to deal with the issues and challenges that veterans face. The Deputy Minister and I have had very positive discussions on this issue. First Minister, could you commit that, if the issues that exist between the UK Government and the Welsh Government on this matter can be overcome, your Government will constructively work with the UK Government on appointing a veterans commissioner for Wales? Diolch, Llywydd.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I was very pleased recently to spend an evening at the Brecon barracks and to meet with some very senior, committed staff there. Llywydd, there are no issues that lie between the Welsh Government and the UK Government on this matter; it is entirely a UK Government initiative, proposed by them, announced by them, funded by them. Of course we will work with the UK Government on it, but it is just very important to be clear where the initiative comes from and where the initiative lies. I hope that the appointment will be a success and that it will deliver good things for veterans in Wales. But the responsibility for ensuring that lies with the Government that has initiated it and seeks to take it forward. The meeting between the Minister in the Welsh Government and the Minister for Defence People and Veterans is designed to make sure that, where we have a part to play, we're made aware of that, and we'll certainly do that constructively.

Thank you, First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item is the business statement and annoucement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There are no changes to this week's business. Draft business for the next three sitting weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found among the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Darren Millar AC: Trefnydd, I've been contacted by a member of the Welsh Jewish community with regard to access to the Cadw website. It appears that people who are attempting to access the website from Israel appear to be blocked from doing so. Now, using a virtual private network, I tried to take a look at this myself, and it seemed to me that the Cadw website was perfectly accessible from France, the United States, Spain and many other countries, yet not from an Israeli internet provider address. Now, it's my understanding that this has been raised with Cadw as far back as September but, as yet, no action has been taken to address the problem. I'd be very grateful if we could have the Minister responsible for Cadw take an urgent look at this to try and address it, and provide an explanation to the Senedd as to what's happened.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, I will certainly ask the Minister with responsibility for Cadw, Dawn Bowden, to look into this and report to Members as soon as she possibly can.

Delyth Jewell AC: On Sunday evening, Trefnydd, Boris Johnson's broadcast was on Welsh tv screens saying that everyone would receive a third vaccination by the end of the year. Now, at the time, this was an England-only announcement, and this isn't the first time for the Prime Minister to have made a statement broadcast on Welsh tv screens that was not relevant to us. The one in May was much worse, when Mr Johnson announced that the advice had changed from stay at home to a slogan that was far more ambiguous. This announcement didn't apply in Wales. The advice here was that we should continue to stay at home, but there was no explanation at the time that the announcement was not relevant to Wales. I think it's clear, therefore, that we need changes in broadcasting rules to prevent inaccurate information being broadcast here and causing confusion, if not risks. I'm pleased therefore that the co-operation agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government includes a commitment to consider establishing a shadow broadcasting and communications authority for Wales, as this body could recommend such a change. Could the Government, therefore, timetable a statement on this at some point in the new year, in order to provide details on the next steps?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think it's very important, when the Prime Minister does make these announcements, that he makes it very clear that, on that particular occasion, he's speaking on behalf of the people of England, and that's why it was very good to see our First Minister addressing the people of Wales in a similar vein on Monday evening. The point you raise, as you say, it is within the co-operation agreement between Delyth Jewell's party and my own, and I'm sure, as we work through the 46 policies, a statement will be brought before the Senedd.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, may I ask for a statement from the education Minister on the Government's proposed changes for teaching science in schools in Wales? From 2025, it's been said that physics, chemistry and biology will no longer be offered as separate subjects. Instead, pupils will study for one integrated science award that combines all three subjects together. This has led to concerns being expressed that science is being, and I quote, 'dumbed down', and teachers have a lot of anxiety about the new curriculum. The separate science subjects of physics, chemistry and biology have been part of the curriculum for many, many years, but it seems that the Welsh Government plans to reduce the opportunity to study these specific sciences for pupils in Wales are prevalent. So, can we have a statement from the Minister early next year on how he intends to ensure that science standards of education are maintained, and that his proposal will not mean future Welsh scientists, such as Dr Lyn Evans, who led experiments at the large hadron collider, become increasingly rare? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: As part of the announcements that have been made, science is certainly not being dumbed down. The Welsh Government has put a significant amount of work and resources into promoting science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects across all ages. As you are aware, the Minister for Education and Welsh Language makes many statements in the Chamber, and certainly on the curriculum itself, and I'm sure he will be able to update Members if any further information is required.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Trefnydd, I'd like a written statement, please, on the provision of 20 mph zones in semi-rural areas, as well as ensuring that drivers adhere to that speed limit. Recently, I've met with representatives and residents of Gwaelod-y-garth in north-west Cardiff, and they are fighting for greater safety for pedestrians, particularly older people and children, who have to walk through the village to catch the bus to the secondary school. There is no pavement in many parts of the village, and, for obvious reasons, they want a 20 mph zone through the village in order to make it safer. But, as you know, Trefnydd, it's one thing to get that speed limit in place; it's another to ensure that as many people as possible adhere to the speed limit, and that's a cause of concern in areas where there are these 20 mph zones in north-west Cardiff, in Creigiau. So, can we have a written statement on these issues, please?

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, I'm trying to remember when we had a statement—I think it was a written statement—on 20 mph zones from the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, but I don't think that was too long ago. So, I'm not aware of any further guidance or regulations that have come into force in relation to the 20 mph zones, but, if there are, I will ask the Deputy Minister to do a written statement.

Mark Isherwood AC: I call for a Welsh Government statement on the provision of support for the families of veterans with mental health conditions. Last week, the Forces in Mind Trust published their new report, developing a model of the Restorative Approaches Veterans and Family Service. This followed a three-year evaluation study, carried out by the Children's Social Care Research and Development Centre at Cardiff University, of a new service, the Restorative Approaches Veterans and Family Service, or RAVFS, that utilises restorative engagement to help ex-service personnel and their families improve their relationships, communication and family functioning. This innovative new service is provided by Welsh children's charity TGP Cymru, and was developed in collaboration with Veterans' NHS Wales. As the Forces in Mind Trust state,
'there is currently a gap in provision of support for the families of veterans with mental health conditions.'
Their policy statement on relationships outlines that while support is available for veterans, their families are often left behind. They recommend more integrated support for families in veterans mental health services, and increased involvement of the family in the transition from military to family life. The findings from this study suggest that services such as the RAVFS could help provide this missing support and call for a wider roll-out, perhaps to the Veterans NHS Wales population, across all Welsh local health boards. I call for a statement accordingly.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think Mark Isherwood raises an important point, and you'll be aware that Welsh Government provides a good deal of services right across our public services for our veterans, to whom we obviously owe a debt of gratitude. I know that the Deputy Minister for mental health services is aware of the report. Perhaps when she has considered it she could have a conversation with the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership, to see if anything further can be done.

Heledd Fychan AS: Trefnydd, I'm sure many of my fellow Members will be aware, but the child and adolescent mental health services waiting lists for people to have neurodevelopmental assessments such as ADHD and autism can be appallingly long, with very many people within the Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board boundaries contacting me for support, having been waiting for over two years for such an assessment. This means that we have young people in their teenage years who will be finishing their education before getting that assessment, which will mean that they will miss out entirely on crucial support at a crucial time in their lives. Can we have an update in the new term from the Minister for Health and Social Services, or her deputies, on the position in terms of CAMHS in South Wales Central and what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure assessments in a reasonable time for children and young people? Two years is not reasonable, and this is having an impact not only on children and young people and their families now, but also on their futures.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I agree; two years is a long time in anybody's life, but certainly in a young person's life, but you will be aware of the significant pressures on our NHS, not just in your region but right across Wales and indeed the UK. I know there is a significant amount of work being undertaken by the Minister for Health and Social Services, along with the health boards, in relation to CAMHS, with funding put forward too.

Altaf Hussain AS: We now have a co-operation agreement setting out reforms that sound ambitious. The move to a national care service is an interesting idea, and I would like you to schedule time for the Deputy Minister for social care to outline what a national care service means, the outcomes we expect people to experience, and the role of local government, which for years has battled hard to provide good-quality services at a time of even tighter budget constraints. Can the Minister confirm that services commissioned by local government will be the most modern, or are we facing a major reorganisation of what local government is responsible for?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, and you are correct, a national care service is part of the co-operation agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Labour Government. I think it will have huge benefits for people in need of care, and obviously support the dedicated workforce that we have in the sector.
You'll be aware that we recently announced £42 million of funding for social care. That will be used to expand community social care services, it will facilitate hospital patient discharges into care settings and support the well-being of our social care service users, and it will also have the benefit of reducing hospital readmissions and ease pressures on bed capacity.We know that increased demand for social care increases during the winter, and again in September we allocated £48 million to support social care recovery in Wales.
We are currently looking at how we take forward the national care service. We've been informed by the advice of the social care fair work forum in our considerations, and some local authorities are already working with the independent sector to uplift salaries, and I think that's also to be greatly encouraged.

Thank you, Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice: Shaping Wales Future—Laying national milestones, revised national indicators and publishing a Future Trends report

We'll move now to our next item, item 3, a statement by the Minister for Social Justice on shaping Wales's future, laying national milestones, revised national indicators and publishing a 'Future Trends' report. I call on the Minister to make the statement. Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Through the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and its seven well-being goals, we have a framework for Wales's future: a Wales that is economically, socially and environmentally just, and a Wales we would want our children and grandchildren to inherit from us.
Each one of us has a role to play in protecting and improving our nation. An important element of that is considering how we collectively lay the foundations now for the better Wales we want in the future. For the Welsh Government, our shaping Wales's future programme of work is about moving us closer to a better Wales for everyone. We are setting national milestones against the backdrop of our ongoing recovery from the COVID-19 pandemic as well as the commitment by the Welsh Government to deliver a stronger, fairer and greener Wales.
In February, we committed to a road map for setting Wales's first national milestones, updating the national indicators and the publication of the 'Future Trends' report. I am delighted to be speaking today as we deliver all three and publish our consultation response and independent analysis.
The Government’s ambition is for the national milestones to drive collaborative action and act as a key measure of the pace and scale of change needed in a number of key areas. At their heart they are geared towards driving significant progress in tackling poverty and inequality, and they reflect our determination to do this. Following our programme of engagement with stakeholders and as a result of the responses to our formal consultation process, we have refined our national milestones and national indicator set, which we have laid today.
Dirprwy Lywydd, we are committing to an elimination of the pay gap for gender, disability and ethnicity by 2050. Fair work and social justice are at the heart of our vision of a Wales that recognises that equality, diversity and inclusion at work are vital to a society that enables people to fulfil their potential no matter what their background or circumstances. We are setting a target for 75 per cent of working age adults in Wales to be qualified to level 3 or higher by 2050. We know that people with higher level qualifications and skills are more likely to be in sustained employment, with larger earning and wage gains, particularly for those individuals from disadvantaged areas. Because of this we are also aiming to decrease the percentage of working age adults with no qualifications to 5 per cent or below in every local authority in Wales by 2050.
Tackling significant inequalities of this kind between different areas of Wales is a fundamental ambition of this Government and we will measure long-term progress through the national milestones. Our national milestone focused on ensuring that at least 90 per cent of 16 to 24-year-olds will be in education, employment or training by 2050 will measure the actions taken to support young people during a critical time in their lives. We know that periods of economic inactivity early in a person's working life has a detrimental impact, and that young people have been especially vulnerable to employment changes caused by the COVID-19 pandemic.
We want everyone in Wales to have the opportunity to participate in good-quality, sustainable work regardless of their age or where they live. This is why we are committing to eradicate the gap between the employment rate in Wales and the UK by 2050, with a focus on fair work and raising labour market participation of under-represented groups.
As a Government, we must always act to safeguard the health and well-being of the people of Wales and our ambition is to remove barriers to children having the healthiest possible start to their lives. We also know that good habits as children often develop into making better healthy choices as adults. This is why we are setting a target to increase the percentage of children with two or more healthy behaviours to 94 per cent by 2035 and more than 99 per cent by 2050.
Thinking of our wider global responsibility, we are committing to Wales using only its fair share of the world's resources by 2050. This is an important element of our vision of building a sustainable and resilient Wales and of our continuing response to the climate and nature emergency, protecting our most precious and natural resources. We are pledging to achieve net-zero greenhouse gas emissions in Wales by 2050 and this national milestone echoes the existing targets in our Environment (Wales) Act 2016 and is aimed at encouraging and empowering everyone in Wales to play their part in driving emissions down, as we know societal and behavioural changes will be crucial to achieving our goals. We will also continue to explore how this important target could potentially be reached even quicker.
We are also reiterating our commitment to the safeguarding and growth of the Welsh language by setting a national milestone to support a million Welsh speakers by 2050. The Welsh language is an integral part of our Welsh identity and culture and we are committed to doing everything we can to see it flourish and to protect it.
Alongside the national milestones, I have also laid before the Senedd an updated set of national indicators that measure Wales's progress towards the well-being goals. As a result of the consultation feedback we received, these include new measures on justice, travel, housing costs and digital inclusion—all matters that we have been told play a larger role in shaping our national well-being than they did before the pandemic. This expanded national indicator set will continue to help us measure progress towards the seven well-being goals and our journey towards becoming a fairer, greener, more successful Wales.
Today also marks the publication of the latest edition of the 'Future Trends' report. The report brings together, in one accessible place, authoritative information on the key social, economic, environmental and cultural trends that are likely to affect Wales's future well-being. The setting of the national milestones, updating our national indicators and a renewed look at the future trends shaping Wales can ensure that the well-being goals remain relevant to people's lives now and the challenges we face today and in the future. We will provide the first update on the progress towards the national milestones in the well-being of Wales report next year, and continue the conversation on national milestones in 2022 with the development of the second set of milestones.
For national milestones to succeed it is crucial that every public body considers how they can best actively contribute to them. They are an important part of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and they lay the foundations for success. Dirprwy Lywydd, I am very pleased to be presenting these national milestones to the Senedd; milestones that place social justice, tackling poverty and tackling inequality at their heart. I am proud that, together, we are creating a more just, equal and prosperous Wales.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Conservative spokesperson, Joel James.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you, Minister, for your statement today. I would like to start by providing a few comments about the first wave of milestones in the hope of focusing on the rationale behind them and in the hope of discovering why the Minister considers these milestones ambitious, given the 30-year timescale.

Joel James MS: Firstly, Minister, with regard to the gender pay gap, which you are aiming to eliminate by 2050, the data that is frequently used—and it has even been used in the 'Well-being of Wales: 2021' report—is a measurement based on median full-time hourly earnings. This simple measurement collates the salaries of men and women and divides them by 37 to give an hourly rate. It then adds hourly pay data that is only available for a small number of businesses. By including this data, you then arrive at the median or middle value of the data set.
But, the problem with using this data is that it doesn't reflect the complexity of pay relationships across the employed sector of society. For instance, it does not take into consideration experience, levels of qualification, additional benefit entitlements, pension relationships, and it does not take into consideration the profitability of businesses or even industry standards when comparing pay between company executives.
Furthermore, it doesn't consider gender behaviour. For example, are men more likely to travel further distances than women to access work, and are therefore able to access higher paying roles? What about geographical variance? Do those living on the border between England and Wales travel into England for work and therefore access higher average salaries? Are women more likely to change jobs than men and, as a result, experience more entry-level salaries? The list can go on. But, what we do know is that women are more likely to work fewer hours, to support families, and that taking time out to have children substantially increases the gender gaps. But, what consideration is given as to whether or not this is reflected by men in the family, such as working longer hours, or by changing jobs for higher salaries to support their families? Ultimately, we need to know how this is taken into consideration.
The problem with using this milestone, based upon such crude data, is that the Government and the future generations commissioner are conditioning society—particularly women in society—to think that they are inherently underpaid to do the same job as men. Yet, you have no substantive evidence that understands the complexity of gender pay, from what I can see, to actually back that up. I'm concerned that, in your continued promotion of the gender pay gap without the necessary data to support it, you are actually causing more harm than good, by creating a division that isn't there.
From your very crude analysis, you have reported that women are paid 1.5 per cent more, on average, than men for part-time work, which indicates that there isn't an institutional underpayment of women in the workplace. But, as previously highlighted, there are far more complex factors at play, which need to be understood. Thus, given the continued variance in the data, you may already be hitting your milestone targets, but until you have accurately measured gender pay differences that reflect the complexity of gender in the workplace, you will never know, which ultimately means that including this milestone is pointless.
In my mind, a more meaningful milestone target would be just to have an employment rate of 60 per cent for disabled people. Now, that would be an ambitious milestone. For the avoidance of doubt, I want to point out—and I do want it on the record—that I believe passionately that everyone should have equal pay for equal work, regardless of gender, sex, race, disability or religion. I make these comments because I unfortunately see the potential for this Government to start designing future legislation to meet its targets, which it hasn't properly understood.
Secondly, to expand on this argument I want to very briefly touch upon a point mentioned in the 'Well-being of Wales: 2021' report, under the gender section, concerning education. It's reported that from foundation phase to key stage 3, a higher proportion of girls than boys achieve the expected outcomes. Girls also continue to achieve better educational outcomes at GCSE, and a higher proportion of them, aged 16 to 18, remain in full-time education when compared to boys. This is also the case for those aged 18 to 24.
What concerns me, and I suspect concerns a great many others, is whether or not improving girls' education is coming at the expense of boys' education. In reality, if there was a gender balance, you should always get a slightly higher proportion of girls or boys attaining higher grades in any given year, but over a set period, this would average out. However, the fact that you are reporting this trend means that teaching methods seem to have potentially changed to favour girls against boys. I would personally be interested in seeing an elimination of this educational attainment gap in the second wave of future generations milestones.
Thirdly and finally, I think that it is a very worthwhile target to aim to reduce the number of 16 to 24-year-olds who are not in employment, education or training. I believe that empowering young people with a work ethic is essential in helping them to maximise their potential. As we know, studies have shown that time spent as a NEET can have a detrimental effect on physical and mental health, and it increases the likelihood of unemployment, low wages or low-quality work later on in life. But the target you have set for 2050 is to reduce the number of NEETs to only 10 per cent for 16 to 24-year-olds, and given that this is a 30-year target, this is pretty unambitious, especially given that the current number of NEETs in England is already 10.6 per cent. Minister, having a target of 10 per cent is not really a milestone, it is? It is fairly meaningless, given that the current situation in Wales, as of 2020, is that 13.9 per cent of people aged 16 to 24—

You need to conclude now.

Joel James MS: —are NEETs. Again, given the sampling data does not accurately consider the complexity of the data, such as the relative mobility of young people and those attending further education, colleges or independent schools, the percentage of 16 to 24-year-olds who are NEET in reality could already be much lower and, in theory, it could already be met. It implies that the Government is bereft of ideas, sets targets that it predicts it can easily meet so it can’t be criticised for failing, and is ultimately only paying lip service to improving the lives of individuals across the country.
Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. And with that in mind, I would also like to take the opportunity to wish the Minister a very happy birthday, as I believe it’s tomorrow. Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Joel, and thank you for your good wishes. I just think it’s very important if we just set in context why we are developing these national milestones. They're set out as our expectations of progress against the national indicators, and they do help us to understand the current scale and pace of change, and whether we’re on track. I think what’s most important about the point we’ve reached today, where I’m making this statement, is it comes as a result of extensive consultation, consultation with a good response. I think all of those have been published today—you’ve seen the consultation responses. That consultation sets out proposals for these nine national milestones that we’re considering today, which assist Welsh Ministers, but all public bodies, in assessing progress towards the well-being goals.
They were interesting comments, I would say, on eliminating the pay gap—interesting comments that, in terms of the responses from the consultation, suggest that support for the intention and focus of this national milestone was very high, with 95.4 per cent of responses in agreement with the overall response. I think if you look at the outcome of the consultations, the responses that came from the third sector, for example—a large proportion were from the third sector, about a third of the responses, the public sector, as well as individuals, higher education, trade unions, a whole range of other stakeholders came forward to respond to the consultation. But I will say that, just in terms of the particular issues on the pay gap, this is very important in terms of the elimination of the pay gap, and it’s important that it’s about ethnicity as well as disability. You focused on gender issues. I think it’s also recognising that we’re working to secure more robust and reliable data on the pay gap, and particularly for all protected characteristics, because I know, as you said, that you want to ensure that this is about achieving a fair and just response to this milestone in terms of eliminating pay gaps, which we know is critically important. We will always revisit milestones as data becomes available, particularly in relation to the protected characteristics.
This is about a shared endeavour. Yes, for many, it may seem that 2050 seems far away, but it is such an issue in terms of the pay gap being so entrenched that we can’t resolve it overnight. We don’t have all the policy levers, such as employment law, which is reserved, and also there are very many wider socioeconomic factors in terms of the achievement of milestones. I’m sure you will be very pleased to hear that we’re implementing an equality data unit, and working with other analysts to look at improving the evidence in terms of the data that’s required. But I would say, particularly regarding the public sector equality duty, reviewing that, working with the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the UK Government EHRC, is crucially important. You have focused on gender. In April 2021, the gender pay gap in Wales, based on median full-time hourly earnings, was 5 per cent, unchanged from 2020. For part-time employees in Wales, the gender pay gap was 0 per cent, and of the 11 UK countries and regions where men earn more than women, Wales has the second smallest pay gap. But we have a big pay gap in terms of disability, and I'm sure you would recognise that. We also have to to address the ethnicity pay gap as well.
I'm glad you've focused, as well, on the milestone that at least 90 per cent of 16 to 24-year-olds will be in education, employment or training by 2050. This is also where we do need to look at the prospects for not just the Welsh Government's employability plan, published in 2018, but also recognising that the employability of our young people will be hugely enhanced by the young person's guarantee across all protected characteristics as well. But what is important is that we're looking at the annual population survey series, and that's broken down by age and disability, and to look at this in terms of gender, age, disability, ethnicity. We have to look at the equality issues, as well, in terms of achieving this. We will look to, I'm sure, next year's 'Well-being of Wales' report, because that will of course start to identify whether we are making progress and how we are making progress—and that's for the whole of Wales; all our public bodies—on these national milestones.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The desire to forge a Wales that is economically, socially and environmentally just, the vision that the Minister has stated drives the framework underpinned by the milestones and the indicators announced today, is something that I'm sure Members of all parties can agree on. But the future, of course, is an uncertain thing, with the ongoing pandemic and the effects of climate change, for example, just two factors that are changing how we see that future and our ability to shape it.
If the aim of the national milestones is to lay a course for the progress of Wales, using the measures that will ensure the policies made by the Government are all heading towards that stronger, fairer, greener Wales, then we must see them not only guide policy but also be clearly evident in outcomes. The aim of the national milestones should be to show the people of Wales what progress needs to be made towards the well-being goals and what is being achieved, and also be a communication tool that allows that progress to be clearly evident in our everyday lives.
When so many of the Government's policies are delivered by local authorities, it is perhaps the local picture rather than the national one that often has most meaning. The national milestone for creating 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050, for example, reiterated today, is so often undermined by poor planning and a lack of ambition at the local level when it comes to Welsh education provision. The Minister has acknowledged the significant inequalities between the different areas of Wales, and there are also differences in delivery that contribute to this. Might local data sets within the indicators allow people to compare and contrast performance in their own areas and let them judge whether the national efforts to shape the Wales many of us want to see are actually resulting in change for their local communities? Could the Minister tell us how the local picture is, or could be, reflected in the indicators and the wider Shaping Wales' Future programme of work?
I welcome the commitment on the net-zero target, which is of course contained in the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, and would urge the work to accelerate that target that she mentioned to be given full priority, including the devolution of further powers that could enable us to reach it faster, because this is perhaps the most important target of our times. I also welcome the attempt to address the issue of the gender pay gap and inequality in employment. However, as one of the well-being goals is a more equal Wales and women's well-being stretches beyond economic inclusion, could the Minister please outline how women's safety and the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy will be included within the 'Future Trends' report, future policy, and this approach for shaping Wales's future?
The disability employment gap in Wales has been stuck at around 30 per cent for over a decade. Meanwhile, disabled employees tend to earn less than non-disabled people, and this has been stable for a number of years. I'm glad to hear the Minister reference this today in her statement and her answer to Joel James, because we know that disabled people face significantly higher living costs due to their impairment or condition, which makes this goal of eliminating the disability pay gap all the more pressing. Given that the disability pay gap was only added to the Welsh national well-being indicators in 2019, what does the Government plan to do to eliminate this pervasive issue in line with the national well-being goals?
In December 2020, the Equality and Human Rights Commission found that considerations for disabled people were not being integrated into transport strategy and policy in Wales. I'm therefore glad to hear that as a result of consultation feedback, new measures on travel have now been included. Currently, the transport system in Wales is not of a high enough standard for the needs of the people of Wales, nor for net-zero targets, which is why it is important that it is now being included as an indicator. However, any indicator regarding travel should also take into account accessibility and reliability for disabled people, as this will be key to ensuring economic and social inclusions. Can I therefore finally ask the Minister to assure us that this is the case? Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. Thank you for the support for this very ambitious programme, to ensure that we do take this forward in terms of the vision that we have for a fairer, more just and greener Wales. Because this is about our future generations. In fact, today's statement is very significant. It's the first ever national milestones that we are reporting on today, that we're stating today, that will lead us, the whole of Wales. I think your point about these being national milestones, to bring some consistency at a local level, where we do see the fact that we need to engage through our public bodies that have the well-being duties through—indeed, also, through the work they do through their public services boards with their partners, because it's not just one public body that is going to make the difference.
Setting those national milestones for Wales, alongside the national indicators, does provide a robust mechanism to assist Ministers, particularly monitoring national progress. That is crucially important in terms of all of the milestones and their objectives to achieve our seven well-being goals. But it is vital that those public bodies have that clear trajectory to 2050, and unite with a very uniting vision to work towards. Of course, it is also important that we are able to build on this in terms of our co-operation agreement, because the programme for government contains a great deal of policy areas that will help us succeed in reaching these critical milestones. Some of these commitments are now reflected in these national milestones, of course, set before, in various ways, our co-operation agreement, but now we can build on them, I know, in terms of the way forward.
I think it is very important that you raise some particular issues. The issues around net zero are crucially important in terms of the way forward, and the fact that we are enabling that to be something where we are going to just address this to be something that is actually built on as a result of our consultations. The consultations that came through for the national milestones are very clear in terms of also, I'd say, Wales using only its fair share of the world's resources by 2050. This is a crucial milestone to be linked to our net-zero ambition. In terms of delivering on that, we have to look at that in terms of the opportunities that we have. This is clear. It's the most recent advice of our expert advisers, the Climate Change Committee, and specifically designed to reflect a highest possible ambition, but actually taking this further with the evidence that we will seek and the evidence that we need to gain. Every five years, we, of course, are already required to publish further delivery plans that effectively describe in detail how our net-zero goal will be achieved. It'sso important we have that in statute, isn't it, that we can actually address this and take this forward.
And I'm very glad also that you have focused on the disability pay gap as well. I have responded to some of the issues relating to the gender pay gap, but, if you look at the disability pay gap, with that Office for National Statistics analysis showing the disability pay gap in Wales was 9.9 per cent in 2018, that means that disabled people in Wales earned on average 9.9 per cent less per hour than non-disabled people. It's smaller, actually, the pay gap, smaller than for the UK as a whole, and, actually, was the fifth smallest of the 12 countries and regions of the UK. But we have a long way to go in terms of closing that pay gap, and, clearly, that's where the work that we're doing in terms of the disability rights taskforce, which is now meeting—. And, of course, one of the points that I made in my statement about the national milestones is that they have been also developed in light of the pandemic, in light of the understanding of the deepening inequalities that the most disadvantaged have experienced. And that's why linking inequality, tackling inequality, in terms of the impact of it on how that influences our national milestones, is so important.
And I'm also glad that you have recognised that there are some opportunities with the new indicators. There was extensive consultation leading to the outcome today—extensive consultation with our stakeholders. I've already described how people got involved. I think what was very important is that, for example, we also used the children's rights advisory group; we had a session with a panel of young people. They all engaged with this, as well as public webinars and public services board co-ordinators.
But, in terms of the new indicators, particularly in relation to travel, the percentage of journeys by walking, cycling or public transport, it's not currently covered, transport, in terms of the national indicators. So, this is a gap that we need to fill, but it's about how do we move to more sustainable modes of travel in terms of decarbonisation and physical health. But then, of course, we need to look at issues like accessibility in terms of transport, breaking down those particular barriers, which will be addressed in our disability taskforce, because what's key to all of this, and underpinning what you've said, is that this is about well-being goals that are about a more equal Wales, as well as a healthier Wales, a resilient Wales, and a prosperous Wales.
And that's where coming forward with new national indicators has been so important. So, as a result of this, this should have more national coherence in terms of taking forward and being held to account as a result of the national milestones linked to the indicators. It will lay responsibility on our local authorities, our public services boards, but also all those who are engaging on delivering the opportunities that the well-being of future generations legislation provides.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement today. I think the publication of these milestones is a really exciting step, in providing a sense of focus and a yardstick against which we can measure progress. So, I've got some questions around those milestones. Firstly, I welcome the commitment to a target for 75 per cent of working-age adults to be qualified to level 3 or higher by 2050. How will we also ensure, though, that there's a focus on those level 2 apprenticeships, which can often prove to be the gateway to level 3 and higher-level qualifications?
Secondly, I also welcome the intention to decrease the percentage of working-age adults with no qualifications to 5 per cent or below by 2050. I'd be keen to know if this would include any focus on increasing the provision of community-based adult basic skills classes. It's been proven that courses in these settings are really crucial to engage with those furthest from the labour market, so they have a key role to play, I believe, in achieving this milestone.
And, lastly, it's also positive to see the target to increase the percentage of children with two or more healthy behaviours to 94 per cent by 2035, and all by 2050. Minister, in this context, will there be a particular focus on teenage girls, as research consistently shows that this is the group most likely to cease participation in organised sports, often due to peer pressure and low self-esteem? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Vikki Howells. Yes, there are really important opportunities, in terms of these national milestones, to ensure that we do have a much more level playing field in terms of access to qualifications and employment. Seventy-five per cent of working-age adults will be qualified to level 3 or higher by 2050, because we know that with higher-level qualifications you're much more likely to be in sustained employment, with larger earnings and wage gains as well. But we know that we've got to reach out to those who are furthest from the opportunity for those skills and qualifications and gateways into higher-skilled jobs.
And I think, if you look at just some of the qualifications levels, going back to the previous questions about making sure that there's more consistency, that we can focus and target not just geographically but also on those who need perhaps the bigger boost and input, and particularly relating to the points that you made—. Because we do have to make sure that this is every local authority—percentage of working-age adults with no qualifications 5 per cent or below; this is a real focus on the local authorities. There is a considerable variation. The highest proportions in terms of those with no qualifications are often in the south Wales Valleys. And in terms of national averages, that's what we need to seek, in terms of moving forward. And we will see the proportion with no qualifications—nearly five times higher for adults living in the 10 per cent most deprived neighbourhoods. So, the employability strategy that we're publishing in the spring of this year is going to be much more focused on tackling inequalities, providing support through personal learning accounts and, I think, our young person's guarantee, which is going to be crucial for the under-25s, as you know, and you have expressed support in terms of those issues.
I think it is also very important that you raise the increase of the percentage of children with two or more healthy behaviours to 94 per cent. And this is interesting, because I've mentioned there was a children's rights panel—Young Wales brought young people together. And as a result of the consultation, the national indicator has been reframed positively to allow focus on the young people who don't undertake any or only one healthy behaviour. It's actually also really important to see that there are actions that can be taken to reach out to those young people, particularly young women. So, it's issues around actions we already have under way, in terms of 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales', for example, putting a much greater range of issues to help shift population dietary behaviours. Physical activity, of course, is crucially important to that. But it's about ensuring that we're having investment into our school holiday enrichment programme, into the street games that we've invested in, the community sport fund, and also looking at this from the young person's perspective, and that's why the Young Wales panel was so important. Thank you.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement. Neither of us is likely to be around to be scrutinised by 2050, so—. Even your 2035 target for improving the healthy behaviours of young people is 13 years away. So, I'd like to ask you to expand a little bit on how we're going to get nine out of 10 children adopting two or more healthy behaviours. I appreciate that free school meals for all primary school pupils and extending childcare to two-year-olds are good places to start. But Meilyr Rowlands's report on peer-on-peer sexual harassment, published by Estyn last week, makes very uncomfortable reading, and there's clearly a huge amount of work to be done to tame the harmful aspects of new technology, not least engaging with parents and discouraging them from giving these tools to online pornography to be made available to young people.
Equally, if we're going to get at least three quarters of working-age adults in Wales qualified to level 3, how is that going to inform the parity we need to attach to technical skills, as opposed to academic skills, particularly in relation to how schools promote the importance of both those skills? And how is this going to inform the measures we use to assess the effectiveness or value added by schools, rather than it being a little bit more random than that, in relation to the numbers of deprived children a particular school may have? So, I think, obviously—

You need to conclude now.

Jenny Rathbone AC: —it's the beginning of the debate, but, I think, if you can say a bit more on how we're going to really improve the health and well-being of young people that would be helpful.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone. Yes, 2050 feels a long way off, but it's actually what we're doing year on year, and how we are held to account and how we can use the national milestones and national indicators to track progress that is so important. That's why we've got a statutory basis for this. I would urge colleagues and Members to look at the 'Future Trends' report, because that is, again, a statutory duty, published today, and it's actually helping and supporting decision makers in Wales, as it says, to look to the longer term. It is the first statutory—well, the first due under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, the first 'Future Trends' report, was published back in May 2017, but it does actually give us a clear indication of the way forward in terms of the future trends that we need to link to in terms of making that important progress. It also highlights what we should be looking at, in terms of those future trends, to enable us to get a grip on progress. And I think you are focusing, absolutely rightly, on our young people and that generation, that we move forward. I've responded to the issues relating to the healthy behaviours of our young people, and we need to engage our young people and our schools, and the new curriculum will, of course, help us move forward on that front.
But I think, in terms of the percentage of working-age adults qualified to level 3 or higher by 2050, this is very much going to be guided by our new employability strategy, and to be looking at the opportunities that our young people have for skills in a changing world. That's actually stepping up our support for basic skills, foundation and digital skills, and helping individuals have the skills for the changing world that we're in, increasing the adaptability of the workforce, but then our young learners, to develop the skills and acquire the new ones. But it is, clearly—. In terms of the responses that we've had to the consultation, this is seen as a strong guide not just for Government, but for our public bodies to find the way forward.
And I've also mentioned the fact that we've changed our milestones, particularly in relation to healthy behaviours, to reflect a more positive approach. And I think the participation of young people is crucially important. It's a focus on developing targets and interventions for the key behaviours in a young person's life, improvements at a behavioural level, but also showing that, in our most deprived areas, we have to ensure that we focus on inequities, and those that have particularly been deepened by the pandemic. But can I say that we are exploring options for research to better understand the drivers that will ensure we can help our young people in being ableto adopt those healthy behaviours that will have made such a difference to their lives, but it will have to be the result of intervention to tackle poverty? And, as you say, providing early years intervention in terms of childcare and free school meals are probably two of the key most important decisions that we know and we hope are coming through in terms of our budget and our co-operation agreement.

I thank the Minister.

4. Statement by the Minister for Finance and Local Government: The Welsh Tax Acts etc. (Power to Modify) Bill

The next item is a statement by the Minister for Finance and Local Government on the Welsh Tax Acts etc. (Power to Modify) Bill. I call on the Minister, Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch. Yesterday, I laid the Welsh Tax Acts etc. (Power to Modify) Bill, together with the explanatory memorandum, before the Senedd. Tax devolution is important; it provides a significant lever through which we are better able to deliver strategic priorities for Welsh citizens and businesses. The last four years of experience of tax devolution has enabled the Welsh Government to develop a considerable tax capability. We have established a distinct Welsh approach to shaping tax policy and to the delivery of that policy by the Welsh Revenue Authority. Our approach keeps the needs of Welsh citizens, communities and businesses at the forefront.
This Bill provides an additional fiscal lever by permitting Welsh Ministers to make amendments in response to changes made by the UK Government to predecessor UK taxes—that is, to stamp duty land tax and landfill tax—that will affect the Welsh block grant adjustment, and therefore the revenues available for essential public services. At the moment, every time there is a UK fiscal event, we take the risk that there may be a change that impacts on a devolved tax, and we may not have the appropriate mechanism by which to respond at pace. Such changes could have implications for businesses, the property market, and a direct budgetary impact on the Welsh Government’s resources.
This was demonstrated in July 2020 when the UK Government did not tell us in advance that they were cutting stamp duty land tax, despite the clear implications for the housing market in Wales and the UK's economic recovery from the pandemic. Although we can vary rates and thresholds for land transaction tax through regulations, we can't do this for every change.
Amendments to the Welsh tax Acts will also be permitted in order to respond to a number of other external circumstances, such as to ensure that devolved Welsh taxes are not imposed where to do so would be incompatible with any international obligations, for example, where a new trade deal is concluded with another country that has implications for our taxes.
It will also enable Welsh Ministers to make legislative changes to protect against avoidance activity, which can then be stopped with immediate effect. This includes cases where increased clarity in the legislation will put beyond doubt the intended application of the legislative provisions, and potentially benefit taxpayers by stopping the promotion of avoidance opportunities that don't actually exist. Such action has been taken by the UK Government to protect tax regimes and taxpayers in the past, and I want Welsh Ministers to be able to take similar action.
Lastly, this Bill will also allow Welsh Ministers to make changes where a court or tribunal decision identifies an issue that Welsh Ministers consider could benefit from legislative change, or greater clarification of the law. This includes decisions relating to the Welsh tax Acts, UK predecessor taxes, other taxes, or other laws that may affect the devolved taxes.
This Bill allows Welsh Ministers to make regulations that may have retrospective effect. The use of the power retrospectively will be considered on a case-by-case basis as justification for each may differ, depending upon the purpose in question. This will most commonly be limited to cases where the impact of the regulations is to confer a benefit to Welsh taxpayers. For example, the Welsh Government may want Welsh taxpayers to benefit from a reduction in their tax liability from the same date that a change was introduced in England. The Welsh Ministers may choose to achieve that by adopting, or adapting, the same or a different policy.
However, in the case of avoidance activity, Ministers may wish to be able to announce that the scheme will be closed down by future regulations effective from the date of the announcement. In such circumstances, taxpayers could reasonably expect retrospective changes to be introduced that ensure that they pay the right amount of tax.
I recognise that the use of retrospective legislation requires both policy justification and legal safeguard, and should only be used in situations where it is necessary. This is why the Bill places a duty upon the Welsh Ministers to publish a statement on the use of the power to make regulations that have retrospective effect. And a draft of this statement has been shared with the Finance Committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.
The Bill will provide the Welsh Ministers with an agile tool to protect Welsh revenues raised through devolved taxes, contributing to the drive for stable tax devolution. We have consulted with our stakeholders on the content of the Bill, and I would like to take the opportunity to formally thank all of those who have contributed to developing it. I look forward to the scrutiny process that will now follow and the constructive engagement of organisations who have already contributed and also that of colleagues across the Siambr. Diolch.

The Conservative spokesperson, Peter Fox.

Peter Fox AS: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd, and thank you, Minister. Thank you for the statement and thank you to your officials for their technical briefing yesterday at our joint committee. It was really helpful and really interesting. I do have some sympathy with you; budgetary processes and taxation are very complex things, and this complexity has only increased during recent years.
It's right, then, to ensure that Welsh taxpayers are not left at a disadvantage compared to other taxpayers across the UK when changes are made to the predecessor taxes, as well as to close tax loopholes so that funds can be used to support our public services—it's quite right that we do that. However, as part of your consultation around the Bill, I know stakeholders such as the Chartered Institute of Taxation and the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales stated that their default position is that tax legislation should be in primary legislation, and particularly in the case where legislation relates to the exercise of tax powers, except in very exceptional circumstances. And this is a principle that I agree with, and I'm sure many in the Chamber—the virtual Chamber—would agree with too.
I think, to reflect the conclusions of the previous Finance Committee, that we need more of a legislative basis to our budget and taxation-setting processes in Wales to support the democratic scrutiny of public expenditure and taxation. It is in this regard that, by using regulations to make changes to taxation, this Bill could—and I stress 'could'—be used to go further than originally intended. Now, I note that there are some strict limits on the use of the powers within the Bill, but there is still some ambiguity as to when the powers may be used. In the original consultation, the Chartered Institute of Taxation stated that
'the circumstances in which power 1 can be used leaves quite a wide discretion'
and that a number of terms used within the section are vague and undefined. However, the Government rejected the idea of a Senedd lock on the use of power 1. Perhaps I could ask you, Minister, why that was the case.Could you also clarify the circumstances—and you've touched on this a bit already—where you envisage needing to use the power to modify Welsh tax Acts? And, ultimately, who in the Welsh Government is responsible for deciding which one of the purpose tests within section 1 has been met when bringing forward regulations through the Bill?
Finally, comments were made during the original consultation that multiple changes via regulatory powers risk making the primary legislation difficult to follow because of the amount of cross-referencing required. If a substantial volume of secondary legislation is needed, would there potentially need to be work to consolidate these to ensure that tax law is as accessible as possible? Thank you, Minister.

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Peter Fox for those questions. I am really pleased that the briefing that officials provided has been useful. I'm very much looking forward to the detailed scrutiny process, which will commence on 22 December, as an early Christmas present for us all, in committee. And I know that we'll be looking at many of these aspects in more detail, but I'm very, very pleased to at least set out my initial response to some of those questions this afternoon.
One of the substantive issues that you raised was, essentially, why not use a finance Bill, and I know that this has been an issue of interest to finance committees in the previous Senedd. My position does remain that I don't consider the timing right to introduce an annual budget or a finance Bill through which changes to Welsh tax Acts can be made. A key consideration for the Welsh tax Acts specifically is that the volume of secondary legislation that these Acts have so far generated is not significant at all, and as we develop more devolved taxes then I think that, potentially, there could be a strengthened argument for an annual finance Bill, but I would even contend that if we did have an annual finance Bill, we'd still need the powers that are provided for within this Bill, because they enable Welsh Ministers to respond to external events that might not necessarily coincide with the Welsh Government finance Bill cycle. For example, the UK budget at which changes may occur isn't on a fixed cycle, and it often occurs more than once a year, and there are also other fiscal events at which changes can be announced, for example, the July 2020 stamp duty land tax rates provide, I think, an example of that. And furthermore, the Bill will enable Welsh Government to be far more responsive to wider changes, such as court decisions and avoidance activity, than is the case with either the UK Government's finance Bill approach or the Scottish Government's approach, where changes are often made through a finance Bill only.
In terms of why we are not using existing powers—so, thinking about primary legislation, for example—the Bill aims to provide an additional flexible tool to allow Ministers to respond at pace to external circumstances that impact on our devolved taxes. Primary legislation generally takes around 12 to 18 months to develop and complete that cycle of Senedd scrutiny, so it wouldn't enable us to respond in an agile way if we needed to do so at short notice, for example, to close down tax avoidance activity.
And there was also a question in terms of why, despite consulting in the documentation on the Senedd lock, we subsequently removed that from our proposals. The lock was originally proposed to enable the Senedd to signify its approval of the use of the made affirmative procedure, and the original policy proposed the use of a power that could be used whenever Welsh Ministers considered it expedient in the public interest to do so. The lock was intended to respond to concerns that the power would be unusually broad, but the Bill now, as currently drafted, has much reduced the scope of the power to those four purpose tests, which can only be used when considered necessary or appropriate. And so that does, I think, sufficiently constrain the power so that a Senedd lock, which itself would have been unconventional and may set an unhelpful precedent for future made affirmative powers, wouldn't be appropriate, because we've narrowed things down with this Bill so much.
And then just to complete that, really, just to highlight that the scope of the power is limited to the four specific purposes: firstly, ensuring that landfill disposal tax and land transaction tax are not imposed where to do so would result in non-compliance with any international obligations; to protect against tax avoidance in relation to landfill disposal tax and land transaction tax; to respond to changes to predecessor UK taxes that impact, or could impact, the amount paid into the Welsh consolidated fund; and then to respond to the decisions of courts and tribunals that affect, or may affect, Welsh tax Acts or regulations made under them. So, we've very much, following the consultation, narrowed the scope of the Bill, which I think removes that need now for the Senedd lock, which was in our original consultation. But I very much look forward to exploring these issues in more depth in the weeks ahead.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I thank the Minister for her statement. Just to pick up on some of the previous comments on a finance Bill or an annual budget Bill, I still feel as I did when I chaired the Finance Committee in the previous Senedd that that is something I would certainly want us as a Senedd to move towards. I accept the Minister's comments on how quickly we can get to that point, but it's certainly a discussion that I would want to keep alive. And I also agree with the Minister, whether that happens or not, we still need the powers that the Government are seeking in the Bill before us today.
I've said in the past that I have no problem in principle with these kinds of powers being given to Welsh Ministers. It is entirely reasonable. Having the means to modify legislation at short notice in this way is something that I do think is reasonable, but it has to happen under particular circumstances. Failing to respond may lead to damaging or unfair implications. Under those circumstances, I think it's reasonable that we move in this direction. It is something that other Governments take for granted around the world. So, there is nothing unique in this.
Having said all of that, before we can support legislation that empowers Ministers in this way, we all have to be confident that the necessary restrictions are in place to ensure that the parameters are clear, first of all in terms of under which circumstances the Minister can act, secondly, to what extent the Government can act, and then thirdly of course, that there are strong measures in place to ensure timely parliamentary scrutiny and consent, or as soon as possible once the decision is made. At first sight, the legislation looks quite reasonable on those fronts, but obviously I look forward to scrutinising the proposed legislation over the next few weeks and months.
Just a few questions from me, Minister. There is a risk, of course—and we've perhaps seen this happen in other contexts—that, over time, powers like this can be used by Ministers to go beyond the authority provided to them. So, can you confirm on the record this afternoon that it's only under exceptional circumstances and only when there are no alternative options that you would intend to use the powers provided to Welsh Ministers in this Bill?
And also, in order to balance things slightly, what consideration have you given to including more independent voices or perspectives in the process of deciding to operate these powers? A suggestion has been made that there might be a more formal role for the Llywydd, perhaps, in the process. Cardiff University, in their response to the consultation last year, suggested that we need to ensure diversity in the group that decides when these powers should be used, and I'd be interested to hear how you intend to have some sort of balance within the process. Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much for raising that series of questions, and for your generally warm acceptance of the need for the Bill, but obviously you're looking forward to the scrutiny process ahead. I'm sure that we will continue to return to the question as to whether or not a finance Bill is necessary at this point, but as I say, we will keep that under review as circumstances develop and change in future. Just to provide reassurance, I do think the parameters of the Bill are sufficiently clear, especially now that we've just narrowed it down to those four purposes for which the Bill should be used, which I've just outlined in response to Peter Fox. But we also recognise the real importance of the need for proper scrutiny, which is why we've included some real, I think, significant safeguards within the Bill in terms of the procedure.
The Bill would allow for regulations subject to the draft affirmative procedure to be laid in draft for a minimum of 20 days before they're put to the vote. Obviously, if they're approved, those regulations can be made, and regulations can lay for a longer period than the 20 days before being put to the vote. Under the made affirmative procedure, we would look to have that period for 60 days. And obviously, if the vote is lost or the 60-day period expires, then those regulations cease to have effect from those dates, and we've put in place a view as to what we would do should those regulations fall. The safeguards that we've put around the made affirmative procedure in particular, I think, are important, because they would only be used when Welsh Ministers consider the regulations necessary by reason of urgency and only for the four purposes that I've described. An example, I think, would be a need to urgently respond when the delayed closure of a tax avoidance scheme would result in considerable loss of revenue.
The proposed approach within this Bill isn't unprecedented and it won't be unfamiliar to tax practitioners. For example, section 109 of the Finance Act 2003 provides HM Treasury with a bespoke power to make regulationsto make immediate but temporary changes to stamp duty land tax legislation, and regulations made under this are subject to provisional affirmative procedure, which is similar to the Senedd's made affirmative procedure, meaning that they must be approved by the House of Commons within 28 sitting days in order to have that permanent effect. So, I think that what we're proposing here isn't unusual or novel in that sense, despite being something that will enable us to respond very quickly to changes. In terms of roles for individuals and parties, I'm sure we'll have the opportunity to explore that in further depth in committee in due course, and on the floor, of course, of the Senedd. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you, Minister.

5. Statement by the Minister for Economy: Supporting the creation of a Community Bank for Wales

Item 5 is the statement by the Minister for Economy on supporting the creation of a community bank for Wales. I call on the Minister, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. The UK has one of the least diverse retail banking systems in Europe. It is dominated by a small number of very large banks. These banks operate according to a traditional shareholder value business model that seeks to maximise profits for their owners. Retail high street banks, as we know, are retreating from many of our high streets at an ever-increasing and alarming pace. According to Office for National Statistics data, the number of bank branches in the UK has fallen by 4,390, or 39 per cent, between 2012 and 2021. The consumer magazine Which? estimates that by the end of 2022 only 277 bank and building society branches will remain in Wales.
Our programme for government commitment to support the creation of a community bank for Wales seeks to address this market failure in relation to the gap in provision, effectiveness and access to quality banking services in Wales. Our vision for the community bank for Wales is one that is based on the mutual model, owned by, and run for, the benefit of its members rather than the maximisation of profit for shareholders. It will be a modern, full-service community bank, headquartered in Wales. It will provide access to bilingual products and services through a range of channels including digital, online and in-branch. The bank will facilitate local investment and enhance community wealth building, recirculating savings into loans and preventing capital drain. It will provide a positive impact on communities and high streets, improving access to everyday banking services for all citizens regardless of income or wealth, as well as, of course, small businesses across the whole of Wales.
As a Government, we are however alert to the significant challenges of establishing a community bank. Whilst there are a number of community banks in development across the UK, no community bank has yet been established. Start-up co-operative and mutual banks face increased challenges compared to their shareholder-model banking counterparts. This is particularly the case in respect of securing development and regulatory capital, which make entry and organic growth difficult. In addition, banking sector legislative and regulatory competencies are reserved matters. We are therefore reliant on the alignment and ambition of private sector firms who share our vision and ethos in order to establish and operate a community bank for Wales.
Since our work to support the creation of a community bank for Wales was first explored, traditional high-street banks have further accelerated their retreat from our high streets. Now more than ever, an increasing number of communities across Wales are left without physical access to what we consider should be an essential public service. The impact of this retreat is not universal, with rural communities and those individuals and businesses across Wales who are more reliant upon cash and face-to-face relationship banking being hit the hardest.
Despite the many high-profile community campaigns supported by members across the political colouring of the Senedd, traditional banks have continued to close branches. I welcome the continued cross-party support for the creation of a community bank for Wales and acknowledge that Members' questions are understandably increasingly focused on the delivery timescales, branch roll-out plans, and products and services to be offered by the community bank. Those questions reflect the needs and concerns of communities in Members' constituencies across the breadth of Wales.
Over the past two years the Welsh Government has supported exploratory work undertaken by Cambria Cydfuddiannol Ltd, a co-operative society established to explore the creation of Banc Cambria as the community bank for Wales. This work has been crucial in informing the delivery strategy of Banc Cambria, and consequently the development of its relationship with an existing financial institution.What I am announcing today reaffirms our belief that this approach has a greater potential to deliver a viable and sustainable community bank. This approach also aligns with the recommendations made in the 'Access to Banking' report by the Senedd’s Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee in October 2019. We believe that this approach supports collaboration across the sector, reduces the risks and minimises the costs to the public purse, and increases the pace at which the development and safe launch of Banc Cambria can be delivered.
Last week, the First Minister, the Minister for Social Justice and I met with the teams behind Banc Cambria to discuss the progress made, next steps and areas where Welsh Government support can best be deployed to enhance the pace of development and delivery. I am delighted to update and inform Members, and welcome today’s announcement from the Monmouthshire Building Society stating its intent to develop its approach to delivering a community bank in Wales. Delivery of a community bank is a good fit for the Welsh mutual that is headquartered in Newport. They've been serving and supporting members and communities across south and west Wales to save and flourish for over 150 years. As a mutual, they are already a purpose-led organisation, providing communities with access to financial help and support in locations that are convenient for them.
Whilst there is still much work to be done, with key milestones and further decision points ahead for both the Welsh Government, the society and Cambria Cydfuddiannol, we remain committed to providing all appropriate and necessary support in order to help accelerate the establishment and roll-out of Banc Cambria across Wales. It is now appropriate for the Monmouthshire Building Society to lead on the communications and update on the project as it progresses. We acknowledge and agree that the development of robust, secure and compliant systems are paramount for the society, its existing members and future members of Banc Cambria. I will meet the society and Cambria Cydfuddiannol Ltdregularly to keep abreast of progress and understand where our support can add most value. I will, of course, update Members as appropriate following key decision points. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: I thank the Minister for his statement. I'm also grateful to the team at Banc Cambria for the time they've given in recent months to keeping myself and colleagues updated on the development of a community bank for Wales. Having previously worked in the mutual building society sector for more than two decades, I particularly welcome the fact that the bank's partnership with Monmouthshire Building Society has been made public today, thereby allowing the operational requirements to ensure delivery to be put in place.
Speaking here in 2010, I raised with the then First Minister the risk management and capital adequacy requirements and regulation a new bank would have to comply with, which an established bank or building society partner would not. In 2013, Welsh Conservatives called for the establishment of Invest Wales, a network of regional investment banks embedded in local communities, to lend to small business and provide advice and support based on this partnership model. In 2017, I led a debate on banking services here, which called on the Welsh Government to examine the not-for-profit community banking model then being developed in Wales by Responsible Finance, which proposed working with credit unions where credit unions can't, and providing finance and support for people, businesses and social enterprises that cannot access finance from high street banks.
In response to the fifth Assembly's Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, the Federation of Small Businesses questioned whether the community bank solution overlaps with other things that other instruments and institutions that we already have in place in Wales could be actually in a better place to do. And so, given that this is a commercial investment for the Welsh Government, it is crucial that the Welsh Government performs due diligence and rigorous analysis of the business plan for a community bank prior to further investment. Therefore, Minister, what processes have been followed and what due diligence has taken place to date to provide assurance for the people of Wales before the scheme progresses?
Of course, when performing due diligence, it's also vital that the Welsh Government considers the impact that a community bank will have on the credit union sector. The Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee report in 2019 made it clear that credit unions have some very serious concerns about the impact that a community bank could have on them. Indeed, the chief executive of Cardiff & Vale Credit Union wrote on behalf of a group of 11 Welsh credit unions to highlight the fact that Banc Cambria's intention to provide personal loans on a co-operative model basis would be in direct competition with credit unions, and that it would directly threaten the future sustainability of the credit union network in Wales. And so, in light of these concerns, what action is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that the sustainability of credit unions is not threatened by the development of a community bank? And how will the Welsh Government work with credit unions that are keen to work with them but concerned to ensure that Banc Cambria takes neither their business nor their funding? Given the Post Office partnership with UK banks, Banc Cambria could also have an impact on post office services. What assessment has the Minister therefore made of the effects of Banc Cambria on the post office sector? And what discussions has he had with the Post Office about establishing a community bank in Wales?
The creation of a community bank could have a transformative impact on local communities, particularly rural communities that have lost the presence of a bank on their high street. It's reassuring that BancCambria has previously said that rural communities are at the heart of what they're trying to do. Banc Cambria has made it clear that it aims to open at least one branch where the customer base is evidenced as suffering particularly badly from financial exclusion. And the First Minister has already spoken of locating a branch in Buckley, Flintshire. How, therefore, will the locations of the branches be decided, and what assurances can you provide that financially excluded rural communities will be at the top of the priority list? And what assurances can you give us that the Welsh Government has the capacity to take this model forward into all parts of Wales, should it prove, as we hope, to be successful?
It's vital that we have the right skills base to support the sector. In response to the fifth Assembly's Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, the Community Savings Bank Association said that finding people who have the right balance of skills and ethical motivation for wanting to create something in Wales would be harder than finding the money to support a community bank.

Mark, you must conclude now.

Mark Isherwood AC: Therefore, Minister, what work is being done to identify and deliver the skills needed to support the model for the future? And finally, how is access to the branches for disabled people with both visible and hidden impairments being designed in?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the extensive series of questions. If I can start off by saying that I think today is a really big and important day: to have an established financial institution confirming in public that it is looking to develop the proposal in partnership and will be the established institution to take matters forward is a really positive step forward. And as I said in my opening, no community bank of this scale or model has yet been established anywhere in the UK. So, this is a novel policy area where Wales is taking a lead, and I'm really pleased that we have got a mutual financial institution that is ready and prepared to partner with us, in a manner that should be not just to deliver greater community banking services, but will probably end up being transformative for the Monmouthshire Building Society itself. So, this is a really positive day, and many of the questions that Mark Isherwood has asked are questions that we have already had discussions about and I expect we will get more on as we move forward, because—. Your points about, 'Does the community bank overlap with other services?'—well, actually, we're looking to support and establish a community bank because of the flight of traditional banking services from many communities. I know this is a matter that, as I said in my opening, is supported by Members from across the political divide within the Senedd, because all of us have experience of traditional banking services disappearing from communities we represent. It's the same for Members who represent largely urban constituencies, as well as those that are largely rural. So, there is a real challenge here, rather than a problem of there being an overlap, as a broad picture.
But when it comes to how those partnerships will work, including, for example, the partnerships we'd expect to see with the credit union movement, those are things we expect to see more detail on in both an investment proposal, but also there is work that has already been undertaken by Banc Cambria because, of course, they are part of the co-op and mutuals movement, so they have established relationships with a range of credit unions. But it is entirely reasonable for some credit unions to question how it will affect them and their business and not end up being something that squeezes out competition where services are already provided, rather than providing services into communities that we recognise are under-served at present.
On your question about Welsh Government due diligence, we and any other investor will certainly undertake due diligence following an investment proposal. And we're at the point now where Monmouthshire have confirmed that they're going to move to do that, so I will expect from them a proper investment proposal for us to look at, to scrutinise, and they will also, of course, need to assure their own regulator about the proposals that they are looking to make and what it means for their current members, as well as for future ones too. And again, this goes back to one of the points you made in your list of examples, where you've raised similar issues, on the fact that having an established institution should actually mean that we're able to launch a community bank at a greater pace than if we had otherwise tried to start afresh.
I note your points about the Post Office, and, of course, at one point, there was the possibility of a properly established postal bank—those are matters that are in the hands of the UK Government, and, of course, the Post Office has had for some years an established tie-in with the Bank of Ireland. So, again, we're looking at the landscape of where services exist and looking at how we can add to what exists rather than compete with established services that are already providing a decent service to communities across the country.
On, I think, your broader points, I just want to register this about credit unions: we do expect there to be agency or partnership agreements in place. You wouldn't expect those all to be established with today's announcement, but our expectation is that this will genuinely add to the banking and financial services that are available in many of our communities, and I do believe that this is a really positive step forward. I think the significant detail that you're looking for in many of your questions can only be answered when we get into greater detail in the proposals to be brought forward, including, of course, how the new Banc Cambria establishment expects to deliver branches and the criteria that it will use for where it would wish to establish those in the future. But I look forward to updating Mr Isherwood and other Members over the coming months.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. As I'm sure many Members will raise, this statement is, indeed, timely; it almost feels like a daily news story these days that bank branches are shutting up shop in our towns and villages across Wales. Between 2015 and 2019, Wales lost over two fifths of its bank branches—that's 239 branches altogether. In my region of South Wales West, for example, in my home constituency of Ogmore, there's just one bank branch left in the whole constituency and that's in Maesteg.
It's important, I think, to also remember that we aren't just talking about bank branches, we're also talking about ATMs, as well, closing, meaning that trends towards digital banking and a cashless society are beginning to exclude some groups financially, which, of course, will be more acute in rural areas. The reality is that actions taken by the commercial banking sector will likely worsen regional inequality, and that's why Plaid Cymru welcomes the development of Banc Cambria and, in particular, welcomes the fact that Wales will be leading the way in the UK by having the first community bank, a style of bank that is commonplace across the globe. And I would encourage Members to read about how commonplace community banks are in the United States. And, of course, with Banc Cambria, the money invested will be invested in Wales in the interests of those who call Wales home, meaning that there could be huge potential for economic development in some of our more deprived areas.
It's important that Banc Cambria, as I believe Mark Isherwood has already alluded do, is seen as a bank for the whole of Wales, especially when a lot of the high-street banks seem to be in the process of abandoning Wales. So, I was wondering if the Minister could give any indication as to where Banc Cambria will be looking to establish its initial wave of bank branches, as well as where Banc Cambria may be headquartered. I heard Newport mentioned in the statement; it's important, I think, that it's headquartered outside of Cardiff, but, as a Pencoed boy, I'll take this opportunity to pitch and say I wouldn't mind seeing a branch opened in Pencoed, or for Banc Cambria to even be headquartered there. But it's important, of course, that Banc Cambria is present in communities across Wales, from border communities to the Valleys, to y fro Gymraeg and to our seaside towns.
Of course, one consistent issue that we find with banks in Wales is that there is a lack of ability, or an inability, to bank through the medium of Welsh. We've heard of multiple stories—a recent one with HSBC—where Welsh language communities have been let down in this regard. I welcome, as the Minister highlighted in his statement, that services will be available bilingually. But could the Minister give any indication as to whether or not all of Banc Cambria's services will be bilingual, including in-branch services as well as online banking?
Finally, six months ago, I asked the Minister for Social Justice if the Welsh Government had given any consideration as to how we could use the Banc Cambria community-based model for other community-led businesses, perhaps in energy or steel, for example, and what support the Government is providing for this. The Minister at the time seemed open to the idea, but wished to focus on establishing Banc Cambria first, which is completely understandable. But now that there has been some movement in the development of Banc Cambria, and the community banking portfolio has been moved to your portfolio, Minister, has any more thought been given to how this model could be utilised elsewhere in the Welsh economy?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the questions and comments. I agree with your points about the challenge of it's not just about branch services, but about access to cash services as well—not just ATMs but, in particular, free-to-use ATMS as well. Part of the drive behind this is a recognition that the flight of traditional branches and cash services does mean that there is an increasing divide between those with digital skills, in particular mobile banking, but also those who require cash to go about their normal day-to-day business. So, there's a challenge here, in terms of not acting and what we would otherwise be left with.
I'm proud of the work that we have done successfully over a period of time, with support from a number of parties, on trying to provide financial services through credit unions in particular as well. But I do think that Banc Cambria will fill a particular gap that still exists, and I'm pleased to have the broad support of Plaid Cymru in doing so.
I'd expect more detailed plans for branches to come with that investment proposal, but Banc Cambria indicate that they expect to get up to about 30 branches over their first decade in operation. Now, it is not a fair test to say that Banc Cambria should expect to make up all of the branches that have closed by traditional and long-established branches, and to be able to do so within a short period of time. We're still looking at something that, as I say, is a novel policy intervention, to be able to create a new community bank. And you're right to point out that other parts of the world have a very different network, and that we have, as I said in my opening, not a very diverse banking sector at all. The newer challenger banks that have come along tend to be online banks. So, there's still a gap that we believe Banc Cambria can help to fill.
That detailed investment proposal, when it comes, it won't just be due diligence. We want to look at how they're looking and to set out a plan for how they'll go through where they'd want to establish branches and services. So, I do appreciate that, many of the questions that will come today, I won't be able to give you definitive answers, but to be able to indicate that they do expect to establish new branches over the first decade. They expect to be able to set out more about the products and services that they'll provide. The investment proposal will help to detail and set that out.
The fact that Monmouthshire are doing this already means that we have an institution that is headquartered in Wales. It's headquartered in Newport, and, without looking at the two constituency Members for the city of Newport, I'd have thought that they would want to see Banc Cambria remain established and headquartered within that city. I'm not looking to try to have regions arguing with one another, but the point is that we have an established financial institution that is headquartered and rooted in Wales and has been for a century and a half. That's a good thing, in terms of the sort of fit that we're looking for for someone that is committed to community banking services.
That doesn't mean, of course, that they won't be involved in supporting businesses. I think that they will—in particular, smaller businesses. The challenge will be, if we're looking at larger economic units, about where the capital for that will come. So, it's not that I would say that they're not allowed and won't be permitted to do that; it's really about the need to establish the community banking model first as a proper service that is successful, and it's then about the ambition of the institution and what it can actually achieve.
But, again, I'm not sure that it would be a fair test to say that it must be involved in the sort of scale of finance that you might otherwise see in industries like the steel sector. But it's a matter for the institution to set out a proper investment proposal that the Welsh Government can get behind. And I can say that it's my expectation that Welsh language services won't just be online; there'll be in-branch Welsh language services as well. It's part of the attraction of having a proper partnership with a local institution that understands the need to do that. So, I think it would be a good thing for the language and community banking services, as well as the breadth of what we’re going to be able to do over time. The first step, though, is today’s public announcement about the financial institution. The next step will be a proper investment proposal and the due diligence, and then we hope we’ll get on to actually establishing Banc Cambria branches within this Senedd term.

I have several Members who still wish to speak, so can you please all make sure you keep within your time allocation? And I'm sure the Minister will help us by being succinct in his answers. Jack Sargeant.

Jack Sargeant AC: Diolch yn fawr, Deputy Presiding Officer. Minister, you will know, clearly, that I have been trying and working very hard to bring a community bank branch to Buckley in my constituency, and I think it’s worth noting that the undertaking of starting Wales’s first community bank and opening a branch is a bold one and a welcome one. So, I am very grateful to you and your officials, but also very grateful to the First Minister, the Minister for Social Justice and Ken Skates, for his time championing the idea in Government. And I think it’s impressive that we do have true cross-party support for this idea. I think it’s the Senedd at its very best.
Today’s announcement from the Welsh Government and Monmouthshire Building Society brings us a huge step closer to a licensed community bank in Wales, and I think that’s a tremendous achievement in realising the ambition of this idea. Now, whilst Banc Cambria will be the first in Wales, I know that many across the UK will be watching to follow their lead, but the important question for residents in Buckley, Minister, is: when will Banc Cambria branches be opening on our high streets, and how long will that take?
But, Deputy Presiding Office, if you will allow me in closing, I know I’m quite known as the Grinch of the Senedd, but I am in that Christmas spirit today and, as I’ve said before, I do sometimes sing Christmas carols, and I am singing the same one as I’ve sung previously, so all I want for Christmas, Minister, is a bank in Buckley. Diolch yn fawr.

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, I'm sure the good people at Banc Cambria will have heard you before today, as well as today, and I know that they’ll be taking an interest in today’s debate across the Senedd. Look, we expect to receive an investment proposal over the next calendar year, so during 2022, and we’ll then need to go through our due diligence exercise, as I’ve indicated before. So, I can’t give you an exact timescale for that. But the outline expectation is that before the end of 2023 we might see branches starting to open. We’ll need to see the detail of that and where they’ll be in the investment proposal, and it is a matter for Banc Cambria to bring their proposal forward and to set out how they would look to site new branches and where they would start. I’m sure that there will be other bids, but, as I say, the Member’s been very consistent about Banc Cambria.
It is worth pointing out, when I talked earlier about agency agreements, one of the things that Banc Cambria have already done is to do some work with the Cambrian Credit Union in north Wales, to look at a potential agency agreement that again may help to spread the reach of those services and to do so in a way that is a genuine partnership, rather than a competition with credit union services as well. There is a range of things that come from that, and that’s why I tried to set out that I look forward to coming back with more detail to generate the establishment of a branch, and it will then neatly segue into the social justice and community banking sector in a way that I think the Minister for Social Justice would then become the lead Minister, once it’s properly established.

Jane Dodds AS: May I add to the cross-party support that has been echoed throughout the virtual Siambr this afternoon? Thank you so much to the Minister and to your team and to the First Minister as well for all your work in bringing this forward. It is an exciting, innovative development and whilst I’ve got this opportunity, mid Wales is looking to develop its financial sector, and we would also welcome the headquarters for Banc Cambria anywhere in mid Wales. So, please do consider that as well.
It is so important for urban and rural areas, and I would just like to comment on the challenges facing rural areas without their banks. I was very privileged to meet with Banc Cambria in Llanidloes, which lost its last bank in 2017, and in Hay-on-Wye, where I live, the last bank closed in 2018. So, this is a really exciting and innovative development. Banks are essential in rural areas because they support small businesses, they support farmers and agriculture, and they support those who are not able to access the digital networks. So, we do welcome this.
I’m not going to repeatedly ask the questions that have been asked previously, because you have been clear that there are still developments to come, but I would just ask and urge that both Banc Cambria and yourself are able to maintain good communications with the communities that are affected by the loss of their banks and that there is a good consultation process that allows people to input into that. I'd also like to echo Luke Fletcher's position on the Welsh language, and you've already given the reassurances around how Banc Cambria are going to be able to meet those expectations. Thank you so much, Minister. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, and thank you again for the broad welcome. And the point about consultation and the potential for new branches to be a real catalyst for high-street regeneration as well as community wealth, that's a point that I know Members across the Chamber are really interested in, and how to do that in a way that we understand and that Banc Cambria, when they're developing a proposal, understand how they can do that, and work with communities rather than doing something to communities. I think that's been a perception in some of the flight of the traditional branches of banks, that people have felt that stuff has been done to them without necessarily considering the impact. And it is an issue in urban Wales as well, but we do recognise it's particularly acute in rural Wales. And I'm very grateful to you for thanking the team; it's both the team here within the Welsh Government—some of our officials have worked incredibly hard on what is a complex and not straightforward area—but also the team at Monmouthshire Building Society who have been really committed to making this happen. Without that commitment from them, we wouldn't be here today and we'd still be talking about an idea rather than a proper proposal where we can expect a concrete investment proposal next year. So, I will continue to keep Members informed, and I know that Monmouthshire Building Society, together with Banc Cambria, will continue to do so as well.

Russell George AC: Can I first of all say 'thank you' for your statement, Minister? You've referenced the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, as has Mark Isherwood, extensively, but I was privileged to chair that committee, and I think it's fantastic that, on a cross-party basis, we very much supported the work of Banc Cambria and made a series of recommendations, which I hope helped to move issues forward.
With public funding, Minister, can I ask how you and how the Welsh Government are going to ensure that there's a level playing field for all, and particularly for perhaps building societies that are not involved in Banc Cambria?

Vaughan Gething AC: That's a fair question, and, look, what we're looking at is, we're looking at something that would be a proper investment proposal on a commercial basis. So, it's not as if we're looking to provide preferential lines of credit; it's about finding a partner who can provide a proper detailed commercial investment proposal, provide a return on an investment that the Welsh Government would make. And so, there would be proper due diligence about that, and this wouldn't be, sort of, preferential, 'We're looking after one institution.' And, actually, there was an open call, and Banc Cambria themselves did go out and look for a range of institutions to work with and talk to. Monmouthshire Building Society wanted to do this, were prepared to do this, and recognised it requires the organisation to be committed in a way that some institutions didn't want to be. Now, that's entirely fair. It's for each institution to decide how it wants to manage itself and direct its own energies. I'm really pleased to have Monmouthshire as a trusted partner, working with us now.
And I should say that we really have taken on board the recommendations from the former EIS committee that the Member chaired—I'd probably agree with a great deal more things he said as committee Chair than in his current role. But, no, we really have taken seriously what the committee said, and it's been really useful for us to be able to work from a basis where we know there's cross-party support and we can look to deliver something that should make a difference, where everyone can recognise we're doing something to address a real need. Regardless of how people vote, there's a real need across Wales for us to do something to plug this gap in local banking services.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister. The community bank of Wales is a really important idea, putting its members and communities first instead of shareholders and profit margins. Along with many of my constituents, I look forward to plans being rolled out, but I note your comments around the challenges in putting the new model in place.
You talked about traditional banks accelerating their retreat from the high street, and I'm sad to note that Barclays bank has been the latest to withdraw from the high street in Aberdare. One idea that constituents asked me to raise with Barclays is the idea of a banking hub where a number of banks can come together in one high-street building to offer their services to the community. Minister, I'd welcome your views on banking hubs, on whether they could be part of the solution to the withdrawal of banking services from the high street. I met with Barclays bosses yesterday and put this idea to them. They told me they're already working with other banks to progress this concept, with the first banking hub set to open in England soon. So, with that in mind, will you commit to working with the sector to try and secure banking hubs in Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. What we're doing in Wales with the community bank is a novel policy approach that's not been successful anywhere else. Banking hubs are piloting what they might do, and the Member is right to highlight them as part of the answer for the future. So, we're expecting there to be a pilot report on shared banking hubs imminently, and my understanding is that there are two banking hub pilots, one in Lanarkshire and one in Essex, and there's also a community access to cash pilot being taken forward in Hay-on-Wye. So, we will look with real interest at those three different pilots to understand what that might tell us, either about our community bank proposal, or if there are alternative ways of trying to deliver financial inclusion services for communities across Wales. I'm sorry hear that Barclays are proposing to move out of Aberdare. The Member highlights very neatly the exact challenge we're trying to address, and I'd be more than happy to keep her and others updated on what we can do with the current retail banking sector and the possibilities of banking hubs helping to fill some of the gaps they're leaving behind.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for his statement this afternoon. You'll be aware, Minister, that I met with Banc Cambria in Abertillery some weeks ago to discuss the potential of locating a branch in the town. Many of our Valleys communities have seen the withdrawal of financial services and have seen some real hardship, both for local businesses and local people, as a consequence of that. Many people will be looking at this as an opportunity of seeing financial services back on the high street as a part of an opportunity to reinvigorate town centres in the Valleys and elsewhere. Would you, Minister, work with Banc Cambria, and Members representing seats in the Valleys, to look at how we can ensure that we have a programme of branches and an opportunity to ensure that financial services are available to people up and down the country wherever they happen to live, whether that's Abertillery, Tredegar, Ebbw Vale, Brynmawr or elsewhere? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Indeed, I do understand that there are people who don't live in the Member's constituency, but I praise him for mentioning a number of his constituency towns. Look, there is a real challenge, and the Member highlights it again, about town-centre reinvigoration having a real successful future forward look for our local high streets, and it really does matter for a sense of place in those towns and what people expect about the place where they live. So, I'd be more than happy to carry on the conversation with him as we get the investment proposal around Banc Cambria, as we understand more of the detail about where they're proposing to locate their branches, but crucially how that fits in with our other interventions in any event. Because this isn't just about Banc Cambria resolving all of our ills—and I appreciate the Member didn't say that—but how can it add to what we want to do to make sure there's a real future for Valley towns and others across the country. So, I'd be more than happy to carry on that conversation with the Member at his constructive best.

And lastly, Rhianon Passmore.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Can I also thank the Welsh Government for seeking to address the very difficult problem that is felt in every community throughout Wales, and also extend those thanks to the Monmouthshire Building Society? We know that the UK is served poorly by a number of large banks who ignore customer feedback and continue to adopt a scorched-earth policy to community banking. In the face of almost universal opposition and customer dissatisfaction, they continue to close branches down that have held a very prominent role in our high streets throughout Wales. So, Minister, can you reaffirm that the creation of a community bank for Wales will put people before profit, and will you confirm that the new community bank for Wales will deliver for the many, not the few, on a co-operative mutual model, including with our credit union established partners? And finally, how do I ensure that our new Welsh people's bank and its ATMs establishes on Islwyn high streets for my Valley isolated communities, rooted in industrial co-operation, and who are now very badly denuded by the traditional profit-driven finance model? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, if Banc Cambria were in any doubt about Members keenness for there to be a successful community bank for Wales with a proper presence in each constituency and communities within those constituencies, they can be in no doubt after the contributions of Members today. I recognise that the passion from Members is genuine because of the constituencies and regions you serve, where you're seeing the direct impact of banks leaving and what it means, particularly for those who are the most likely to be vulnerable or financially excluded. That's why I'm really positive about the fact that we're able to partner with a mutual institution, where they're not looking to take money out of Wales to go to other shareholders. It is the members who are their primary interest and they want to reinvest in those communities.
I do think we've got a good fit for what we're trying to achieve with the Monmouthshire Building Society. I look forward to receiving the investment proposal and I look forward to updating Members on it. More than that, I look forward to seeing if Banc Cambria can start to establish branches within the middle of this Senedd term, not only for the first branches that are established, but also for those other communities that will want to see a community bank branch established. I'm sure that the Member for Islwyn will be making her point forcefully and directly to Banc Cambria about the benefits and advantages of going to Islwyn, just as other Members will do the same for their constituencies too. Many thanks, Rhianon Passmore, and many thanks, Deputy Presiding Officer.

I thank the Minister.

6. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: Update on COVID-19

Item 6 today is a statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: an update on COVID-19. I call on the Minister, Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you for the opportunity to update Members with the latest information about the very fast-moving omicron variant, its impact on Wales and the public health situation here. In my last statement to Members, I said it was only a matter of time until omicron arrived in Wales, and sadly, that has proved to be the case. The first case in Wales was confirmed just days later and, as of today, 32 cases have been confirmed. The numbers are growing every day, and we must be prepared for them to rise rapidly and sharply.
The doubling time for omicron is currently two to three days. The UK Health Security Agency has estimated that if the variant continues to grow at the present rate, it will become the dominant strain, accounting for more than 50 per cent of all COVID-19 infections in the UK by mid December. If current trends continue unchecked, there will be more than a million omicron infections in the UK by the end of December. Both the Prime Minister and the First Minister of Scotland have warned of a tidal wave of cases on its way. The situation is very serious.
We are still dealing with the delta variant in Wales at the moment, but there is worrying evidence that omicron already has a foothold in our communities. Cases have now been confirmed in every health board area. It arrived in the UK through international travel and the initial cases were connected to travel. There is now widespread and sustained community transmission in many parts of England and in Scotland too. The majority of cases in Wales are not linked to travel. When I spoke to you last about omicron, there was a lot we did not know. Thanks to the work of experts and researchers around the world, we are learning more every day. We now know that omicron has a growth advantage over delta, and this might be due to immune evasion or transmissibility, but it could be due to both.
Omicron is at least as transmissible as delta. It’s feasible that it's more transmissible. We are awaiting further evidence, but if it is, it has the potential to infect large numbers of people, which could translate into an increase in hospital admissions. We are moving into the most difficult period of the year for our health and care services. The NHS is already incredibly busy as a result of winter pressures and catching up with treatments that were delayed earlier in the pandemic. Even a small increase in COVID-19 admissions would put even more pressure on already stretched services and a tired and, frankly, drained workforce.
We also know that omicron displays a reduction in immune protection against infection and we still don't have enough information to know whether it will cause a more severe form of illness. How the variant behaves in different populationswith different rates of vaccination and different demographic profiles is the focus of intense study around the world. Over the weekend, emerging data revealed that two doses of the vaccine are simply not enough to protect us against omicron. The booster dose is vital for increasing our protection.
More than 1.1 million people have already had their booster in Wales. We were already increasing the pace and roll-out of the vaccination programme as these new findings emerged, but we will now go further and we'll go faster. Our aim is to offer all eligible adults a booster appointment by the end of December. This is a huge undertaking. It will be the priority for the NHS and it will mean refocusing as much non-urgent activity as possible over the coming weeks towards the vaccination programme so that we can maximise protection. We'll be asking all NHS staff who can to work in our vaccine centres. We will be extending vaccine centres to their maximum capacity, extending opening hours and providing a hybrid model of walk-in and prearranged appointments.

Eluned Morgan AC: I encourage everyone to take up the offer of the vaccine. Please make this your priority. It is one of the most important things that you can do to protect yourself.
Dirprwy Lywydd, this is an incredibly fast-moving and worrying situation. However, at the moment, the number of confirmed cases of omicron in Wales remains low and we continue to respond to the delta wave. But we must be prepared to act swiftly to protect people’s health.At the most recent three-week review of thecoronavirus regulations, the Cabinet considered what protections are needed now to respond to the current delta wave and steps we need put in place to prepare and protect against an increase in cases caused by the omicron variant. We have decided to move to a weekly review cycle so that we can closely monitor the public health situation. For the time being we will remain at alert level 0, but we have built on the measures that we have introduced in the last two weeks relating to self-isolation and international travel.
We are now strongly advising people to take a lateral flow test before they go out to any busy places or to any events, and also before travelling or before visiting friends and family. We have issued guidance for students preparing to leave college and universities for Christmas regarding testing before they travel. If the test is positive, then stay at home. You need to isolate and arrange a PCR test.We have made some minor changes to the regulations to clarify that face coverings must be worn in cinemas and theatres and during professional driving lessons or practical driving tests. We also strongly advise people to wear a face covering in pubs and restaurants when they are not at the table or not eating or drinking.We have had to make some technical changes to the COVID pass. Lateral flow tests should be taken within 24 hours, rather than the previous advice of 48 hours.And also with regard to the COVID pass, we are removing proof of natural immunity from that COVID pass, in line with changes being made in England, as the UK Government introduces its plan B in response to omicron.We are considering how to support safer visiting in care homes and hospitals to ensure that we protect the most vulnerable.
Dirprwy Lywydd, this is a worrying and uncertain time for all of us. We have faced challenges together before. We all need to work together, to look out for each other and to keep each other and Wales safe. Thank you very much.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Russell George AC: Minister, can I thank you for your statement and the advance copy today, and also for the briefing that you provided to Health and Social Care Committee Members with your officials? That was helpful this morning as well. I agree with you, Minister; there's huge concern here, because there's so much uncertainty and we know that omicron is fast becoming the dominant strain across the UK and in Wales. Of course, I agree that increasing the vaccination programme has to be the priority and the vaccination programme has to be rapidly expanded.
Can I just ask you a few questions about your measures to increase take-up? Can I just ask about messaging, first of all? Because the First Minister, in his statement yesterday evening and today—the message is, 'Get your booster, and make that your priority'. But for many people across Wales, that's not particularly the issue, because they're ready; they're ready to get their booster. I think the question is how they can do that. For many people, despite the messaging that it's a priority, it's a case of sit and wait until you get your invite. That's the reality here. So, that's some of the messaging issues that I just wanted to raise with you around that. Because I'd imagine anyone in this virtual Senedd today feels the same way. I'm ready to drop everything to get my booster jab. I just want to know how I'm going to find out where I'm going to get it, when I'm going to know, what I should do and by what date if I haven't had my invite. So, if those are the questions of myself and Members in this virtual Chamber this afternoon, those are going to be the questions from people across Wales. I think that's the important element here in terms of meeting the targets that you've set out—the ambitious targets that you've set out to get all adults being offered the invite by the end of the year.
In terms of other measures on take-up as well, in your briefing today, you talked about plans for increasing opening hours. You spoke about that in your statement today, but I don't think you mentioned the times. I think in the briefing today, if I'm right, you mentioned increasing opening times from 9 a.m. to 8 p.m. Can I suggest that for many people, they can attend before 9 a.m. if that's appropriate? Many people can attend beyond 8 p.m. So, can I ask you to perhaps reconsider longer opening times? Because I would suggest that it's very difficult to meet your target if the opening times aren't extended any further.
Hand in hand with that question, of course, is volunteers as well. You've talked about working with the third sector, which I welcome. Can you now launch a Wales-wide recruitment campaign for volunteers? Because surely that needs to happen with some urgency. Can I ask you what your plans are in terms of filling gaps when people don't turn up, sadly, for appointments? It's very frustrating, I know. But when people don't turn up, what are the plans for filling in those appointments with a shorter time span?
You said in your statement that emerging data has revealed that two doses of the vaccine are not enough to protect us against omicron. Can you just clarify whether this is only related to AstraZeneca, or both vaccinations? And how much of a role does time since having a jab play in defending yourself against this new variant? Can I also ask about what plans you have in terms of cancelling planned operations? You spoke a little about that today as well. I'm just concerned because one in five people across Wales are already on a waiting list, so what efforts are you making to prevent waiting lists spiralling further in this regard, and what progress is being made on surgical hubs, as I've outlined previously?
And finally, there seems to be some positive data, early data, showing that death rates in South Africa have significantly fallen in the last few days, so I wonder what assessment has been made from other areas of the world where the new variant is significantly advanced that brings some hope and encouragement that can be drawn from that data.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Russell. Vaccination is absolutely the priority now, and if we do want to protect our NHS going into January in particular, then now is the time to do that work, and that's why we have really put a turbo charger up our system, to make sure that that vaccination programme can actually just be rolled out much quicker, but not in the chaotic way that we've seen in England. In Wales, we do things differently. We try and line things up before making an announcement. You saw those scenes in England on the weekend—thousands of people rolling up to vaccination centres, no plan, and GPs hadn't even been told. We do things very differently here in Wales. We have a conversation first, we line it all up, and then we make an announcement. That's precisely what we've been doing.
There are still some t's to be crossed and i's to be dotted. As you can imagine, this is a Herculean task that we'll be facing. What will happen is, when it's time for your vaccination, you'll be texted or you'll be phoned, so it is important that people have given their contact details to their GP so that we have your most up-to-date contact details. We will then get to a point where we'll let you know publicly if you should have been in the group of people that should have been called. So, we are sticking to the JCVI's suggestion that we should vaccinate people in order of priority in terms of their vulnerability, really—so it's an age-related and an illness-related approach, as recommended by the JCVI. We're going to be sticking to that.
It is possible that we'll be extending the opening times beyond 8 o'clock, so that is something that is just being worked out now. That is likely to happen, certainly in some of our larger centres. The recruitment campaign has already started. We have told people that they can sign up and help us out in terms of volunteering, so that's already been done, and there's a separate process for volunteers who are health professionals. We're also waiting for a response from the Ministry of Defence to our request for support from the military as well.
In terms of the gaps, we are really disappointed. In some areas we are seeing lots of people not turn up for their vaccination, and that is a really, really troubling situation that is arising, which is why we need to underline the fact that this is a vital opportunity for people to undertake and get that booster jab. So, what we're doing is we've always had a system of over-booking, and we'll be over-booking again to make sure that we don't have those gaps.
It's true that two doses of AstraZeneca is certainly not enough, but it's also true that it's not enough of Pfizer as well. That's why we are really driving this with a real sense of urgency. We follow the JCVI advice when it comes to the interval between doses. They have agreed that it is possible to reduce the time between doses—the second dose and the booster dose—from six months to three months, so we are simply following the scientific advice on that.
In terms of cancelling planned operations, I just want to underline that this is a three-week burst that we're talking about—it's a three-week burst of activity, and then hopefully we'll be able to go back to whatever normality looks like these days. So, it is important for people to understand that.
Just on the situation in terms of fatality rates in South Africa, I've been trying to read up about this this afternoon. What is clear is that the experts are warning that the South Africa experience may not be a reliable indicator in terms of omicron in other countries. So, 72 per cent of that population had experienced previous COVID infection. That is not the same situation as here in the UK. We have a different demographic, we have an older population here, we have different vulnerabilities to disease, and I think it is important that we understand that, because the system is different in South Africa, we're seeing hospitalisation rates that the—. I think the sensible thing to do is err on the side of caution, prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I certainly agree with the Minister that the situation is very serious, and I thank in advance all of those healthcare workers, vaccination services and test and trace services, and so on, who are going to be under a huge amount of pressure in the coming period, and that would have been a time of great pressure anyway, regardless of omicron.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: To add a more positive note, I hope that the early evidence that we've seen is going to play out and that we are moving into a less dangerous time. But, we don't know that for sure at the moment, and we do need to realise that large numbers are going to catch the virus now. Even if the proportion of people who become very ill is lower, it is going to lead to a huge amount of pressure on our health services because of those numbers.
I, of course, support the principle of accelerating the booster process, but the danger now is that people's expectations are very, very high, and I haven't yet seen a plan in place that will give confidence that the programme is ready to go. The work is certainly building a head of steam, and I'm grateful for the updates that we've received from the Minister today and in an earlier statement. But whilst she's talking about chaos in England—and I saw the same pictures—I hear about chaos here in Wales, with people turning up to vaccination centres and being turned away because they had received an appointment in January, whilst other people who had not yet received an appointment, because they were less of a priority, were allowed to walk in and receive the booster. That doesn't make a great deal of sense.
We need clarity on what happens to key workers who aren't health and care workers—police and teachers. Can they receive the vaccination sooner? Where are the robust plans to deal with home vaccination, those who are too vulnerable and have mobility issues, which means they can't access those vaccination centres? Communication always needs to be clear with patients, yes, but also with colleagues within the health service. It makes no sense to me when one surgery says that they heard on Facebook that there would be a walk-in vaccination centre in their area. This needs to be tightened up, and the questions are multiple, aren't they? When will the walk-in vaccination centres be opening? Will there be such centres in all parts of Wales? Will people be allowed to travel from one area to another between counties, between health board areas, even to London if they've heard that there's a vaccination centre open there, as one suggested to me earlier on? These are the kinds of issues that we need clarity on.
I know how much of a challenge the Government, the health boards and the vaccination teams are facing, and I am very grateful for everybody's dedication, and I wish them all well in the coming period, but these messages need to be entirely clear, because people are not demanding that they should receive the booster today or tomorrow, but they just want to know what exactly is ahead of them. They are happy to hear that all will be well next week or the following week, and what should happen if they don't receive an appointment by then.
Turning to the pressure on the NHS as vaccination is prioritised, yes, it is inevitable in the situation that we are facing that there will be some postponement in terms of treatments that would otherwise have happened. It's insufficient, I'm afraid, to hear that the Minister is hopeful that things will return to normal after that. No, we need a clear plan to restore services. We hope that this process will be over in a couple of weeks, but the plan in terms of how to get back on track needs to be clear for the following period. So, clarity on that plan would be good.
And finally, I very much hope that we won't need to introduce more stringent restrictions this side of Christmas for reasons of people's well-being and welfare, and for social and economic reasons. We wouldcertainly need to hear about financial support for businesses, and so on, if further restrictions were needed after that. But, I do welcome the announcement today about the strengthening of some fundamental elements, now—such as wearing masks in more places, and advising people more strongly, as well—because even though I, like everyone, I'm sure, hope that we can avoid those further restrictions for now, things can't carry on as they were, and all of us have a part to play in our response to this new threat.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Rhun. I think you're right that very high numbers are going to catch this new variant, and I accept that people's expectations are very high, but I would like to ask the public to wait until they are called so that we can maintain order. Some 26,000 people were vaccinated yesterday, so we've already increased the capacity hugely over the past few days. In terms of people who are vaccinated at home, we have provided additional encouragement for GPs to help to increase the numbers of those who will be vaccinated at home. We will have walk-in centres, but they won't be the same as they have in England, because we are determined to ensure that young people, for example, who are fit, who are 20 years of age, for example, don't receive the vaccine before those who are at high risk and who are, say, 64 years of age. So, yes, walk-ins will be available, but they will be available to a specific cohort of people, and so we will be doing things slightly differently to the way that they're being done in England.
In terms of restoring services and keeping services on track, well,Rhun, if you know what January will look like in the NHS, then you're doing better than me, because I think that the situation will be very difficult in January. We don't know how omicron is going to impact the NHS. We don't know how many staff will be off sick as a result of omicron. So, clearly, it is very difficult for us to forecast what January is going to look like. So, we do have a plan for the next three weeks. We always have a winter plan for the NHS. That is already in place. But, clearly, we will perhaps have to adapt that plan in the face of the fact that this variant is going to put increased pressure on the sector.
The Cabinet will, obviously, meet later on in the week to decide whether we will need additional measures to keep us safe over the Christmas period.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement, and also thank you to our vaccine NHS champions. Minister, we know that the omicron variant effectively reduces immunity achieved by two doses of vaccine to virtually nothing in the case of Oxford-AstraZeneca and to minimal protection from infection in the case of Pfizer, but that is not to say that the double doses will not dramatically help people fight off severe illness as a consequence of being infected with COVID-19. So, Minister, will you join with me and ask for people to 'flow before they go' and also call for the people of Islwyn to get boosted this Christmas, to keep themselves safe, keep their families safe, and to keep Wales safe? And when people ask, 'Why get the booster shot after two doses?', is it not correct that the booster will increase immunity levels to over 70 per cent, and, as one correspondent put it, the first dose is the primary school education for your body, the second dose is comparable to sending your body to secondary school, and the booster is akin to university, deepening and broadening our body's own ability to fight this vicious virus?
Finally, Minister, outside of the priority groups, when will you be looking at opening walk-in lanes and centres for the people of Islwyn, as well as dramatically extending opening hours of vaccination centres? Diolch.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks, Rhianon. You're absolutely right; the double dose is not enough. But the last thing I want to do is to put off people who haven't had any doses at all. They're the ones I'm still most concerned about—people who have had no protection whatsoever. Our ICU departments are really under a huge amount of pressure, and some of that is because there are people in there who have had no vaccinations at all, and it's putting pressure on our ICU system unnecessarily. I do really plead with people to think about how their actions are really having an impact on other people, in the sense that they may be taking up a hospital bed that somebody else could be taking for an emergency that is not of their making. And I think it's really important that we get people to understand their responsibility to the wider community and wider society here. Because none of us know how we're going to respond if we contract coronavirus, so we just need to really underline that.
We will be, as I emphasised, doing walk-in centres, but they won't be on a free-for-all basis; they will be in specific cohorts. So, all of those things are being worked out in the next few days. But literally—what day are we today? Tuesday—we've been working all weekend on this and, obviously, there is a huge amount to put in place to really ramp up this programme. It has already been ramped up, but we need to double what we're already doing, so huge amounts of work still to be done. And I do hope that we can all stand together and thank our NHS workforce for the incredible work that they have done, but, more than anything, we are now asking them to go the extra mile once again; at a sensitive time of year, when they do want to be with their families, we're asking them to cancel their leave—all of these things. It's another huge ask of the people who've given so much of themselves already.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you, Minister, for your statement this afternoon, as well as addressing and allowing your officials to brief members of the health committee earlier this afternoon.
Minister, while it's important that we react to the developing picture of omicron, it's vital that we don't overreact—this would create more harm than good. I welcome the fact that no new non-pharmacological interventions were introduced on Friday, but we need to focus on protecting the vulnerable, so, with that in mind, Minister, the guidance to care homes was updated on Friday, but it doesn't specifically mention the omicron variant. Will you be updating the guidance to reflect the potential impact of the new variant? And in particular, Minister, early indications of the transmissibility of omicron show that it may be more aerosolised than other variants, so, with that in mind, Minister, will you be issuing care home staff with better PPE, such as FFP3 masks? Of course, the best way to protect care home staff and residents is the boosters. So, Minister, when can we expect all care home staff and residents to receive their booster jabs, because, as it stands, one in three staff and 16 per cent of residents are yet to be boosted?
Finally, Minister, with the strain on the NHS over the coming months, there will be enormous pressure to move patients from hospitals and into the care system. So, what steps are you taking to ensure that this does not become a vector in transmission of COVID into the care sector? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Gareth. I've got to tell you that overreaction is something that, obviously, we're very aware of. We know that the situation is not all about health; it's about economic consequences, social consequences, mental health consequences; we have to balance all of these things out against the potential of our NHS being overwhelmed. So, all of these things are things that we put into the mix before we think about introducing any new protections.
In terms of the guidance being updated for care homes, we have been working with the sector, having conversations with the sector—so, we don't impose on them; we talk to them about what's possible, what's practical and what will work. So, we're working with the sector. And I think we're very aware that things will change very quickly. So, you talked about not overreacting. We have 30 cases in Wales. Things are going to change very quickly and we will probably have to just adapt how we monitor our guidance in relation to care homes.
On the PPE side of things, we have had more work done in relation to FFP3 masks and, again, our clinicians are looking at this, seeing if this is something that needs to be introduced. I think you've got to be very aware that it's a big ask to ask people to wear FFP3 masks all day long; it's something that they, sometimes, are reluctant to do as well. So, we just need to make sure that we land this in the right place; those conversations are still ongoing.
In relation to boosters for residents and care home workers—care home residents, we are up to about 85 per cent already. So, I think that's a pretty high level. So, we're pleased with that, but we've still got a little bit of a way to go to get to the 97 per cent who've received the complete primary course. Some of that, it's not because they have not been offered it; it's because there are different circumstances and reasons why that should happen. Care home workers—we're up to 67 per cent of care home workers who've had the booster dose. So, clearly, we're anxious to see if we can get that up higher. Our evidence suggests that it wasn't the release of people from hospital that was carrying infections into care homes, it was actually—. Some of it was because we had a situation where care home workers were going from care home to care home and, when it's in the community, it's really, really hard to keep it out of anywhere else. International studies have shown that. Trying to build a wall around these places is almost impossible. So, that's what the international evidence has shown us. So, we'll do all that we can, and that's why there is a need to make sure that we test and test and test again, when it comes to care homes.

Heledd Fychan AS: We've received a very clear message from you today, Minister, for people to wait for an appointment. But I have received a number of calls and messages from people today asking when walk-ins will be available in my region, and have seen that there are health boards that are promoting this. So, I am concerned that there is a panic taking place out there, and I think that these messages, which perhaps are conflicting, won't be helping at the moment, in hearing that some areas do have walk-ins and some don't. So, having clarity on that is vitally important.
I'm sorry as well to sound like a stuck record, but I did hope to hear today, as part of your statement, an update with regard to the COVID pass, with regard to those people who can't be vaccinated for some reason. I've raised this with you on a number of occasions since 2 November. On the Welsh Government's website, it still says that the system is being developed to ensure that people can receive a COVID pass if they have an exemption, or they can't receive a vaccine, or they can't take an LFT test for medical reasons and so on.
So, could we have an update in terms of when this system will be available please? Because people do remain concerned, and they can't access access shows, or attend cinemas, and are concerned that people with autism and so on are being excluded from such activities at the moment because this system is so slow in being implemented, as compared to what we've seen in England. Thank you very much.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you, Heledd. I think it is really important that people understand that our system in Wales is different to that in England. We're not going to have walk-ins as they are seeing in England. It's not going to be a free-for-all here. We will go in order. So, I don't know where people are getting that idea that we are doing this in the same way as in England. We're not. We're going to adopt a system where we will go according to age and how vulnerable people are.
I know that people are perhaps uncomfortable with that, but that is what we've decided to do. We're following the guidance that we have received from the JCVI. So, there will be walk-ins, but they will be walk-ins for specific cohorts—for clinical at-risk groups, for example. They will receive a message, 'Today is the day for your walk-in.' Or those people who are between 55 and 59—that cohort will find out which day they can go in. It's not a free-for-all as is seen in England.
We don't want to see people shivering outside in the middle of winter, as is happening in England. What's happening there is survival of the fittest; those people who are fit, who can queue outside, can access the booster. So, we do have to operate by safeguarding those people who are most vulnerable. We're not going to apologise for that.
In terms of those people who can't be vaccinated, there has been a great deal of work on this, Heledd. We have analysed how many people can't be vaccinated and can't take an LFT test. We think that it's only between 100 and 500 people who are in that situation. So, if people are in that situation, they need to contact their doctor.That will be inputted on a system, and that will then be placed on the pass on the individual's behalf, so they will be able then to receive the COVID pass. We haven't done that yet. The reason why that that's been paused is because we have been focusing on the vaccination process; it's the same people who are undertaking all of this work. But a great deal of preparatory work has been done. We know who the people are, more or less. The work has been done, but we need to get the systems speaking to each other. So, we know who the individuals are. There are only between 100 and 500 people. So, when people go to rugby games and say, 'I'm exempt', they won't be able to do that anymore, because it will all be noted on a COVID pass; it will state clearly—if you're exempt, it will show up automatically.

Thank you very much to theMinister.

7. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: Building Safety

The next item, therefore, is the statement by the Minister for Climate Change on building safety, and I call on the Minister to make her statement—Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you for the opportunity to provide a further update to Members on the important issue of building safety. A significant amount of work has been progressed on this most important and complex of issues since I last updated you in July. I'm delighted to inform you that we have today published our response to the building safety White Paper. We received 95 responses, and I thank everyone who took the time to share their thoughts and views. The responses demonstrate commitment to change, wide-scale support for the spirit and direction of our reforms, and to working with us to shape the future regime.
Our intention is to ensure multi-occupied residential buildings have safety built in, not designed out, that responsibilities for those who own, manage and live in buildings are clear, and that residents have their say. I offer my thanks to all those who've contributed to date, but rest assured there will be more opportunities to contribute and shape policy. I'll be writing out to key partners in the new year to invite them to participate in working groups. We are also developing specific work related to engaging with residents and leaseholders who will benefit from our reforms, and to those who are also facing real challenges in the here and now with existing defects in their buildings. This is to ensure their unfiltered views and insights are properly captured and reflected in the new system and we understand how we can best communicate updates on our progress with building passports and related work. We must work together to find the right solutions for this critical area.
As Members are aware, we have taken the opportunity to work with UK Government to utilise the opportunity to ensure that aspects of their Building Safety Bill apply to Wales. This will help improve the way high-rise residential buildings are designed and constructed, and is in line with the proposals we set out in our White Paper. The UK Government Bill includes proposed changes to the Defective Premises Act 1972, which will see extensions to the time within which a claim can be brought before the courts for defective construction work, and will, in certain cases, have retrospective effect. We’ve also worked with the Home Office on the Fire Safety Act 2021, which has seen important reforms for Wales—notably, the external envelope of buildings now expressly comes within the existing fire safety regime.
Following overwhelming support for the proposals in our White Paper, I wrote in September to all local authorities, fire and rescue authorities and the Welsh Local Government Association regarding establishment of a joint inspection team that will support enforcement activities in relation to existing buildings here in Wales. Recruitment of the team will commence in the new year.
All of this means that the future of building safety in Wales will be immeasurably improved. Whilst I'm excited by these developments, I'm very aware that many of you and your constituents are rightly concerned about the challenges currently faced by existing leaseholders. I have said repeatedly that leaseholders should not have to pick up the bill to make good their buildings, but I've also said that the solutions are not easy. Here in Wales, as in some other parts of the UK, we have said all along that this is about much more than cladding, and not just an issue for those in high-rise blocks. In Wales we have always known that this requires a holistic approach, or risks leaving people exposed to ongoing risk. We are making significant progress, being steadfast in our ambition to resolve issues on that holistic basis.
The response to the building safety passport fund, launched earlier this year, has been extremely positive, with over 100 completed expressions of interest received to date. These expressions of interest will be assessed, and the extensive surveys needed on these buildings to ensure we have a consistent and robust understanding of each individual building’s needs and the overall scale of the task will be taken forward. We are appointing contractors through an established pool of accredited providers to undertake the surveys which ensure consistency in expertise and quality of surveys. We are approaching this in a planned and co-ordinated way that provides a comprehensive picture of safety issues present, and reduces stress and inconvenience to residents. The first surveys will commence early in the new year, prioritising those buildings identified through the expression of interest process as higher risk.
However, I recognise that whilst we are making good progress, there are some for whom the financial pressure of living in these buildings is becoming unbearable. I do not want to see people's long-term futures blighted by bankruptcy, eviction and potential homelessness. That is why I'm committing to a new leasehold support scheme to help a small number of leaseholders who find themselves in very significant financial hardship. Full details of the scheme will be provided in the new year, but I hope to be able to provide the option, in a limited number of cases, for leaseholders to sell up. The scheme will target provision where it is most needed in buildings with identified defects where individual leaseholders cannot sell their properties on the open market and find themselves in significant financial hardship due to escalating costs.
I end, Llywydd, by restating my position: developers and those responsible for these building defects must step up and do more to resolve the crisis. They created these problems and continue to leave leaseholders facing financial hardship and suffering from stress and anxiety. This update demonstrates this Government's ongoing commitment to building safety and the intense work that is being progressed. I welcome the commitment to this agenda from Plaid Cymru and look forward to working in partnership with them on this critical issue going forward. Diolch.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Minister, for this statement. I think we've all spoken at length about this shocking crisis facing the householders who are now beset with the problems of this cladding. So, I would like to join with you in echoing that the developers and those responsible for these building defects, they've got to step up to resolve this crisis. And if any of them are watching here today, the onus and some responsibility has to fall with you, or with them, and you must accept your responsibilities. It is morally wrong that leaseholders continue to face financial hardship and are suffering from fear, stress and anxiety.
It is also extremely concerning that the Welsh Government does not know the extent of the difficulties in these buildings, but I'm aware, too, of the overwhelming task that you have ahead of you in identifying such. That such ambiguity persists over four years on from the Grenfell Tower catastrophe is really very worrying and it raises questions as to the speed with which, Minister, you are able to look to improve the safety of approximately 148 high-rise buildings.
You have explained that there have been 100 responses to the building safety passport fund and that the first surveys will commence early in the new year. So, my question is: how soon can we expect any results and actioning of any recommendations, as in surveys? What back-up plan do you have in place for instances where a building is not covered by an expression of interest? I do agree with the need for a leasehold support scheme and, again, we'll have further details of this in the new year. Could you possibly explain today how much funding you intend to allocate to the scheme?
I also welcome the fact that the response to the building safety White Paper has now been published. Previously, I made clear that there are many changes in the consultation that I welcome, but I still have some concerns on a number of points. In relation to risk categories, you'll be aware I wrote to you, noting that I was concerned as to the reasonableness of having a house that is converted into two flats in the same category as a five-storey, purpose-built block of flats. So, as part of your commitment to consider the appropriateness of a three-category model, would you consider splitting category 2 in two—so, making it more broader?
I also agree with all categories requiring annual fire-risk assessments. However, again, I raise these concerns about access to suitably qualified persons. Your team has previously advised me that there are no estimates as yet as to how many suitably qualified individuals there are in Wales to assess around 37,000 properties annually. Has there been any progress on establishing if there is a shortage, and how are you looking to address this?
I am interested in the gateways, but remain concerned about the possibility that the third would see the principal contractor, with the principal designer, produce a final declaration confirming that the building complies with building regs. And, as part of your further consideration of this matter, will you commit to amending the proposals so as to ensure that physical checks are undertaken by local authorities, and that the risk posed by what we now know to be some rogue builders—and let's say it, because that's what they are—is reduced?
Finally, you will be aware that the existing regulatory oversight in Wales is split between the three fire and rescue authorities and the 22 local ones. I have spoken perhaps of us having a single national regulator, and was pleased to read that a national approach to the regulator did receive more support than local and regional delivery mechanisms. Going forward, will you undertake further work to create a single national regulator? Thank you. Diolch, Llywydd.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Janet Finch-Saunders. I think, broadly, we're in the same place. You've slightly conflated the problems of the existing leaseholders with what the new regime might look like. So, just in terms of the new regime going forward, once we take the legislation through, of course the Senedd and its committees will have a chance to look at that legislation, scrutinise it and add in or suggest amendments to that legislation. And I think there's quite a big consensus across the Senedd, so I'll be looking forward to working with you to get into the real detail of that as we take that forward. But, absolutely, the whole purpose of the new regime is to make it extremely plain who the duty holders are, who is responsible at each stage, who does the sign-off and what happens for the occupation phase. Technology has moved on and so on and we would be expecting a great deal of more as-you-go inspection than has been hitherto possible, and, of course, we're going to learn the lessons of the past. So, I think, going forward, there's a lot of consensus.
In terms of where we are at the moment, one of the biggest problems that we have is that ordinary leaseholders don't understand what's wrong with their buildings—they know there's nothing with them—and the EWS forms have made that worse because we've had surveys undertaken. So, part of what we've had to do is we've had to act as broker for them, if you like, to make sure that the expertise goes in, and we don't exacerbate the problem by having a pile of people who aren't really qualified telling them what's wrong with the building and so on. It seems like we're going quite slowly, but actually that's quite a difficult and arduous thing to do. And also, these inspections are not just somebody coming in and having a look at your walls; these are really invasive. The people have to have big holes made in the building and you have really highly skilled people looking to see exactly what's happened inside the walls and all the rest of it. These are things that are quite intrusive for people as they take place, so we have to be absolutely certain that we're doing it once, we're doing it correctly and we get the right picture at the end.
The truth is that we don't know what the problem in all of the buildings is because we haven't got x-ray vision; we can't look through to see if the fire breaks are all in place or if the compartmentation works and so on. We've been clear all along that this isn't just about the cladding. The cladding was one issue, but there are lots of other issues that have come to light. So, I'm really pleased that the building passport scheme will allow us to do that. It will allow us to help the leaseholders and other interested parties go through the process of discovering what exactly it is that's wrong with the building, and then we'll have to look to see what of that can be rectified by a Government scheme to do that—a grant scheme, if I can possibly manage to do that.
But also, Janet, I'm very aware that I don't want to just do a first come, first served, so we're going to try and rank them in order of risk as well, because I don't have an unlimited pot. We won't get into the politics of that, but I'm disappointed by the amount of money that we have as a result of all—. We didn't get the consequentials that were announced by the UK Government, and now we're the other side of a comprehensive spending review. So, we are where we are, but it's not the sum of money we would have liked to have had. So, it's very important to make sure that we cover off the highest risk buildings and the highest risk issues across the piece, rather than just first come, first served. I want to reassure all the leaseholders out there that we are doing that, and if you're the twentieth to go through the process, that doesn't mean the money will have run out, and that we'll be keeping an eye on that all the way through.
And the reason I've announced the scheme I've announced today is because I'm very aware that for some people it's just become unbearable. So, assuming that they're in a position where they can't sell their property on the open market, then we are going to put a scheme in place that will rescue them, if you like—mortgage rescue for them. That will have two components. They will either be able to sell the house to us and then if they want to stay on and rent it, they can, or they can vacate, take the money and start again somewhere else. I know from speaking to large numbers of the residents that there are a lot of people who will be very interested in a scheme of that sort. So, I wanted to make people aware that that scheme is now available, and that we will be looking to do that in the new year via a similar expressions of interest kind of process.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Good afternoon, I hope that everyone can hear me. Yes, there we go, and thank you very much to the Minister for her statement. Let's take a moment to remind ourselves why we are continuing to discuss this issue today. Put simply, the current building safety system is one that has enabled a culture of cutting corners to maximise profit at the expense of public safety.
We can never forget that Grenfell disaster back in 2017.In the early hours of the morning of 14 June 2017, a fire took hold of the 24-storey residential tower in west London, and78 people were killed. Our thoughts remain with their loved ones, of course.
A number of those who managed to escape, the families of those who lost their lives and those who witnessed that horror are still living with the scars and continue to suffer. People are living in fear and they've put up with that fear for four years without action being taken. Eight months have passed since the election, eight months without specific Welsh legislation. Leaseholders and tenants have been trapped in properties from which they cannot move. Their quality of life and their mental health have declined as a result. It’s about time that we responded to this nightmarish situation through a comprehensive programme of reform, the provision of further financial support and a clear timeline.
As my party’s spokesperson for housing an planning, I want to take a moment to welcome the co-operation agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Government. The agreement includes a variety of commitments, including commitments to reform the current building safety system significantly, and to introduce the second phase of the Welsh building safety fund. I very much look forward to working with the Minister, moving forward. However, I regret the fact that this statement did not come sooner, and I emphasise the need for the Government to keep in regular contact with stakeholders.After all, it is the pressure of campaigners and politicians such as Rhys ab Owen that has ensured that this issue is receiving this attention at last.
I would like to turn to one aspect of the statement where I believe that more detail is required. The Minister referred the mortgage buy-out scheme, a scheme that enables people facing financial hardship who live in high-rise buildings where safety problems have been identified to apply for a scheme whereby the Government will purchase the flat and give it to a social landlord. It appears that there is no clear sense of how many people may be eligible for the scheme, just a reference to individuals facing financial hardship, nor will the scheme be up and running for at least three months.
So, I would like to ask the Minister to explain how many people will be eligible for this scheme. Llywydd, what exactly does the Government mean when it says people facing 'significant financial hardship'? In other words, what are the criteria for this particular category? Also, when does the Minister expect this scheme to be operational, exactly, please? What support can the Government provide then to those suffering as a result of building safety issues in the meantime? And what about those people who don’t fit into the Government’s definition of financial hardship?
Again, bearing in mind the part of your statement that refers to current leaseholders and the hope that support will be provided to purchase their properties in the new year, there is scant additional detail. So, can the Minister give a little bit more detail, please, on how much funding will be allocated for this scheme?
It's clear that problems may arise regarding property prices, as we've recently seen. So, what will happen, and what solutions can the Welsh Government offer, if people do not agree with the market value when selling their property? And who exactly will administer this process? Finally, what rights will tenants have who rent from a landlord with a lease? Thank you very much.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Mabon. I won't repeat what I said to Janet Finch-Saunders in terms of the timing of this. It's obviously very frustrating, and we all have in mind the tragedy of Grenfell and the fight of the people who survived that for justice, of course, but the truth is that this is an incredibly complex area of law, and it's been at the very top of my agenda the entire time I've been housing Minister. I certainly don't need to have it put there by anyone else.
It's been a real matter of concern to us to get this right, to not be announcing schemes that don't work, which has happened across the border on a number of occasions, and that don't solve the problem. And also, we've been working very hard on lobbying UK Government to put a number of things in place that only the UK Government can do. So, as part of my statement today, for example, I'm talking about the extension of the limitation periodfor contractual action for those who are able to take advantage of that, and I'm very glad to see that, although that certainly will not solve the problem for all of the buildings that we have, especially those built with a special purpose vehicle model attached to them.
As I said to Janet Finch-Saunders, we've been working very hard on making sure we have a scheme that allows us to look holistically at each building, that allows us to understand exactly what its problems are and what it would take to put it right. And then also, frankly, to understand what the need for the contractors with the skills to do that is, and not have everybody trying to get them all at once, just skewing the market and driving the price up. So, we're stepping in. It's a responsibility that isn't really ours, but actually I feel very strongly that we'll be able to help the leaseholders to navigate the construction remediation phase of that, because otherwise there is a whole host of problems that can immediately be seen by all of us. So, although I understand entirely the frustration of the leaseholders, I think we're in a good place going forward for that, and I look forward to the analysis of the building passports coming forward.
In terms of the buy-out scheme, or the leaseholder support scheme, I don't entirely know the answer to all of your questions, Mabon. What we want to do is we want to see, in honesty, how many people have attempted to sell their house on the open market and have failed to do so because it puts them into negative equity or because the terms on which they're able to do so are too punitive for them to be able to countenance that. I want to be able to see what we can do to help people who are going into mortgage arrears, for example, or have other severe financial difficulties because they've managed to pay their mortgage but, as a result, they have other financial difficulty. I'm prepared to look at people who are clearly in overcrowded situations as a result of having had to stay, perhaps, in a premises that was intended as a starter home and now they're a larger family. There are a number of areas of hardship that we're prepared to look at.
We are looking at valuations that will be done by the valuation office, in the same way as we do for compulsory purchase valuation. But, of course, this isn't compulsory. If the person involved doesn't like the valuation that we're able to offer, it's not mandatory in any way for them to take part in the scheme. This is an offer from the Government for those people who wish to take advantage of it. If a person doesn't wish to take advantage of it, that's entirely a matter for them. I was very keen to ensure that, for those people who wanted to stay in their home but just found it to be financially impossible given where they are with valuations and so on, they could do so, and if not, that they were able to start again elsewhere.
The new scheme will be up and running for the new financial year. That's when the budget will be available, but it will take us the few months in between that to sort out the application process and to start to process people who want to be part of that. This isn't the sort of thing that you can just announce today and start tomorrow; we've got to work alongside our stakeholders to get that in place. But I also was very keen to announce it before Christmas, because I think people who are feeling desperate need to know that that relief is coming and start to look forward to being able to take advantage of it. I think I would be disingenuous, Llywydd, if I said that I had all of the answers to the questions that Mabon asked, but I am looking forward to working with the leaseholders themselves to work out what the optimal scheme would be to get to the most people who need the help.

Mike Hedges AC: This is something that I've asked for over a period of time; it's a matter of serious concern. Like the Minister, who has got the development on the other side of the river, I've got the SA1 development, where a number of these properties are. One of the biggest problems, though, Minister, is that some of these were built by organisations that have gone out of business, such as Carillion, which built some of them. The difficulty of getting any money out of them, even if we had the ability to do so, is something that is a matter of concern. As I said, I very much welcome the proposal. I think that the Minister is certainly moving in the right direction on this. But are you going to give us further updates as we move forward? Whilst there is some money in the pot, it's certainly not going to be enough, is it, to solve the problems of everybody in one of these properties. You talked about how you're going to look to prioritise not the date people apply but reaching the people who are most in need. I very much welcome that, but will you be able to contact, or will one of your officials be able to contact, those in the two areas in my constituency, at South Quay and Altamar, where we've got a large number of people there, just to talk them through it? They've had your statement today, because I've sent it to them, but will your officials be able to talk to them and explain to them exactly where they are, and how they are going to be affected?

Julie James AC: Diolch, Mike. Yes, of course, we'll be able to do technical briefings for residents in buildings to assist them to apply in the same way we have done for the building passport scheme. We're very keen to make sure that people understand the full range of help and assistance that is available to them. Also, of course, as part of the expressions of interest, we're able to make some preliminary moves towards understanding the level of risk that the building has. I just wanted to be really clear that it's not just at the point in time we start to do the invasive investigations that we'll be able to understand the level of risk; many of the leaseholders already have some idea of some of the issues that they face. So, we're able to make some preliminary views straight away when the passports are completed. We want to be able to make sure that we're looking at the worst problems first, all the way through.
Also, it's fair to say that not all buildings will be able to have all of their problems fixed in one go. Lots of these things need to have several attempts at them. Because of the way that the system is held onto the wall, you have to take the cladding off first, and then the system off, and then do the invasive investigations and all the rest of it. So, it's much more complex than just coming in, fixing the building, and leaving again, I'm afraid. So, we will be working with many of these buildings for a long time into the future, and I'm sure that there will be many iterations of this conversation.
I am very happy, Llywydd, to undertake to update the Senedd once we know the exact level of building passports that have gone through the process, and indeed once we start having expressions of interest for the leaseholder support scheme. I'm very committed to making sure that the Senedd is updated as often as is necessary to make sure that we get the information out, and I'm very grateful to MSs across the Chamber for getting this information out to their residents in the way that Mike Hedges has just described.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister. That's a really positive statement, and I thank you for your commitment to getting this right. This isn't a political matter; this is something we just all want to address and make better for the residents who've been suffering so much. I recognise the good work that the Welsh Government and the UK Government have been doing to address this. It is, as you said, an extremely complex issue and it's not going to be solved overnight, but I'm pleased we're moving in the right direction. Mabon asked some of the questions I would have asked, and you've explained that, and I understand that you haven't got all the answers now, but we will learn more about the scheme as it rolls out in the spring.
There is another point that is linked to all of this that I would like to raise, though, Minister, and it's regarding land transaction tax that is being charged on home purchases. One of my constituents has got a prominent premises in the Celestia development. They bought a new family home with their partner back in 2019, and were in the process of selling their flat that they'd purchased themselves. They were selling that to help fund their next home, with no intention of having a second home at all. However, due to issues with obtaining that EWS1 certificate, with the developer of the apartment block confirming that there are compliance issues with fire safety regulations, the constituent was unable to sell the flat. This meant that they were charged a higher rate of land transaction tax, as they were deemed to have owned a second property. This higher rate was equivalent to around £12,000 more than they would have originally been charged had this issue not existed. To make matters worse, it's unlikely that they will be able to reclaim the higher land transaction tax charge, as remediation work is likely to take a substantial amount of time, and so any future sale is likely to be past the three-year window for reclaiming the higher rate of land transaction tax.
I understand in England that the UK Government has decided to allow an extension to the period of time in which stamp duty land tax can be reclaimed due to fire safety issues causing problems in sales. Minister, is this something that you could consider introducing at least as a short-term measure to help out homeowners who are being held back by these sorts of issues? It's something, I think, that would be a way to ease some of those further pressures that some are facing. Thank you for that.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Peter. I can see that my colleague the Minister for finance is listening to your question there. It's in her portfolio, but I can confirm that we've had some preliminary discussions about whether or not a lengthening of the time period to sell the house where it's clearly a bridging arrangement could be contemplated. We haven't reached the end of those discussions yet, but I'm very happy to update you once we have.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you very much to the Minister for her statement.

Rhys ab Owen AS: I, like Mike Hedges also, sent out your statement to many campaigners here in Cardiff Bay, and the responses I've had have all welcomed this statement by you. They're grateful that you've once again reiterated that leaseholders will not be picking up the bill. I'm grateful to you for mentioning that there will be some further technical assistance for leaseholders to navigate this process.
I appreciate you mentioned in response to Mabon ap Gwynfor that nobody needs to remind you of the time that has passed since Grenfell, but that is what residents mention all the time—time is a critical factor for them. I look forward to working with you, Minister, and with the residents, to ensure that there will be fit-for-purpose support available as soon as possible, because that's what they desperately need to know—when they'll be able to receive assistance from the fund.
I also look forward to working with Janet Finch-Saunders, Peter Fox, and I know Andrew R.T. Davies has been very vocal about this in the past—those within the Conservative Party—to ensure proper support from the UK Government. This is far too important to be turned into political ping-pong. We have seen, haven't we, recently, the tragic consequences in the English channel when two Governments do not work together effectively. Let that be a warning for us for cladding, let that be a warning for us for coal tips. These are dangerous matters that should not be turned into political ping-pong. So, I look forward to working with those on the Conservative benches to lobby the UK Government for proper support.
Naturally, Minister, I welcome your promise of support for a small number of leaseholders who are struggling with significant financial hardship. I'm glad that support has been given to people whose long-term futures are blighted by potential bankruptcy, eviction and potential homelessness. Yet there are many others, as you mentioned in response to one of the contributions, who are stranded—as you mentioned, growing families, pensioners who want to move down to the ground floor, people suffering severely with mental health issues. Only recently, Minister, I had an e-mail about a leaseholder who had tragically killed himself due to the mental strain he was suffering. As far as I'm aware, he didn't face bankruptcy, eviction or homelessness, but still could not see any other way out. I'm glad that you said in your response to Mabon ap Gwynfor that you will take a broad view about those who are struggling, who have had significant financial hardship.
Leaseholders remain concerned about being burdened with additional regulatory costs associated with any future building safety regime. I hope that's been taken into account with your plans, Minister, and that you can guarantee that residents will not face any additional cost due to work on building safety. The building safety Bill that you mentioned will mean that residents will still have to foot the bill, and I don't think the extension of the limitation period you also mentioned in your statement will probably make any real difference to the vast majority of those affected. They will still be unable to financially take on these large developers. As Mike Hedges mentioned, a lot of these developers are not in business anymore. Some were in fact created specifically to build a development, and then were liquidated and were wound up.
The Minister finished her statement strongly, saying that developers, and those responsible for those building defects, must step up and do more to resolve this crisis. I can't agree more, Minister. How will you get them to step up?Will they be called out? Will they be named and shamed, and will Government and local government use their significant procurement power to ensure that the developments that do not step up, the developments that don't take responsibility for this terrible scandal, will no longer win public sector contracts or support? Diolch yn fawr.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Rhys. I welcome your support. In the previous Senedd, we had good cross-party working. Janet Finch-Saunders and our colleague David Melding, in particular, took an interest, and I'm absolutely certain that when the Bill comes forward, we'll be able to work collegiately across the Chamber on putting the very best safety regime in place for the future in Wales. As you rightly say, in the meantime, we wrestle with the legacy of the very poor regime that was in place that's caused all of these difficulties and, frankly, the absolutely appalling standard of workmanship and the cowboy gung-ho approach to safety that's clearly evidenced from many of these buildings. I am very grateful to the developers who have come forward and who have put at least some money on the table for some of the developments in Wales to begin the process of remediation. There are a number who have not. I am taking legal advice as to what exactly it is we can do about the ones that have not. You will be very familiar with the fact that many of these developments are put up by single-purpose vehicle companies; they aren't necessarily the holding company. It's very difficult to say that that particular company can't do work going forward, because you'll discover very quickly that, legally, it isn't the same company, and so on. So, it's very attractive, the proposition you put to me, but it turns out to be extremely difficult to do in practice, as I say, as these companies pop up all over the place and disappear again just as quickly.  
Mike will be very well aware in Swansea of one particular case that could genuinely be used as an exam question on what can go wrong, because both the original builder, the second builder, all the insurers and several holding companies after that have all gone bankrupt, one after the other. So, it is really a lesson in how not to do building. We'll have all of those lessons very much in front of us when we look at our new regime but, in the meantime, we are left trying to sort out the labyrinthian twists and turns of the current situation, and that is why here in Wales, instead of having a blanket approach, we very much looked at it on a building-by-building basis, because each one of them is unique and different and, unfortunately, the complexity of that is why it's taking so long, and not because it's not right at the top of our agenda, I can assure you. Even right down to how we get the surveyors to come in and do the buildings in a sequential way that means that the price doesn't go through the roof as a result of market forces, and so on, has been a complexity. So, I assure you I am very keen to work across the Chamber on both of these aspects.
In terms of the UK Government, I'm very disappointed that we haven't been able to get clarity on some of the announcements they've made. But, more recently, we've worked very well together on a number of aspects of leaseholder reform, and so on, the subject of a legislative consent motion later on today. It is very important to understand that leasehold is one of the most complicated areas of devolution, with some of it devolved and some of it not devolved, and the ragged edges of devolution being very evident. So, having to navigate your way through all of that is something I really feel sorry for the leaseholders in doing, and that's why I'm very happy to offer as much technical briefing as we can to help people navigate these very stormy waters.

Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee, John Griffiths.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and thank you, Minister, for your statement. Our committee has agreed that building safety is a key priority over this Senedd term. We have already considered the LCM on the building safety Bill and will be reporting on that shortly, and we also expect to be scrutinising a Welsh Government Bill, of course, during this Senedd term. Our predecessor committee, which I also chaired, responded to the Welsh Government's consultation on the 'Safer Buildings in Wales' White Paper at the end of the fifth Senedd. So, I very much welcome the progress that you've set before us today, Minister, and the publication of the responses to the White Paper. It is vital that the issues raised in the responses are addressed going forward. I wonder if you could say a little bit more, Minister, about the Senedd building safety Bill, perhaps including some idea of the timetable that willbe involved. And one thing we're very aware of as a committee is that, obviously, people do feel very strongly that they should be able to feel safe in their own homes, and that's of utmost importance to them. And that's why building safety has been such an urgent priority for all of us, including the committee, since the Grenfell tragedy. We are still as a committee receiving correspondence from residents frustrated by the slow progress in completing the remedial work and paying for that work.
You've mentioned working with residents and leaseholders. Minister, I wonder if you could just say a little bit more about that, because that engagement with residents and other stakeholders is absolutely key, and it's their input that will be crucial in ensuring that future measures do meet their needs. So, if you could say a little bit more about the engagement work that Welsh Government has undertaken and how their views will actually feed into future policy development, Minister, I would be grateful. And just finally, getting back to the developers, I know that you hosted a round-table event in the autumn, and as we touched upon already, you expressed a willingness, I think, to make public those developers that were not willing to join the discussion. I wonder if you could again say a little bit more about that, and what will be in the public realm. Diolch yn fawr.

Julie James AC: Diolch, John. I admire your committee's constant asking of me about timetables for the Bill, but I'm afraid my answer is the same as the one I gave in committee, which is that we will negotiate the timetable when the Bill is introduced with yourselves, and that we hope to have the maximum time for scrutiny at the committee stage in particular, because I really do want to make sure that this Bill is consensual across the Chamber, if at all possible. So, I will certainly be coming to the committee with a timetable in due course when we have the agreement all set out, and I really absolutely commit to wanting to have the maximum amount of time for the committee to look at the Bill and make sure that we get that consensus across the piece.
We've done a lot of engagement on the White Paper already, and we had a large number of respondents to that, but the responses also acknowledged that there were areas that needed more scoping, refinement and clarification, so we're just in the process of inviting key partners to continue to work with us on developing some of those proposals and to join expert working groups that will be starting up in the new year, to just refine those proposals. So, I assure you that we're very keen on having both the inspection industry, the actual property owners, and the leaseholders' voices all very prominent in that debate, to make sure that we get the regime just right. And I'll just remind you that it's phased, the regime, so it's in the design, construction and occupation phase that this will come forward. So, I'm very happy to commit to that. I'm very happy to keep the committee updated and indeed the Senedd updated, as those negotiations go forward.

Finally, Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Minister, I know you're aware of my enthusiasm for tightening Part L of the building regulations so that all new buildings are fit for purpose in our climate-threatened world. It's the biggest investment that most people ever make, and they really don't deserve developers dumping hidden costs onto them and encouraging them to buy buildings that aren't fit for purpose in either the safety or the fuel efficiency of the building. So, I absolutely support, as I'm sure everybody does, that we ensure that these multi-occupied buildings have safety built in, not designed out. As it's over four years since the Grenfell disaster, what changes have been made to building regs as well as the monitoring required to ensure that the plans are constructed to the approved specification so that anyone who's buying a home today doesn't have to go through the agony people living in these sick buildings have had to endure for all these years?

Julie James AC: Thank you very much, Jenny. I'm certainly well aware of your enthusiasm for Part L, which we are hoping to bring forward early next year, and particularly in terms of the energy efficiency of homes, and so on. Of course, building regulations cover a lot more than just energy efficiency; they cover a whole series of aspects of safety, as you've just outlined. And we have made one or two changes to that, so, obviously, we outlawed various types of cladding very early on after the Grenfell fire, as did England. There have been a number of tweaks of that sort as we've gone along, but we haven't made any comprehensive changes yet, because we are planning to do so as a result of the White Paper. And we are completely changing the entire regime; this is not tweaking, this is an utterly different qualitative difference. It was the subject of many a debate in the fifth Senedd and we'll be in a position very shortly to be able to get that scrutiny going here in the sixth Senedd.
In terms of making sure that the buildings that are being constructed now are fit for purpose, I can assure you that we've had long conversations with various inspectorates about the best way of doing that, but I fear that we are probably having some buildings built right now that will have similar problems if the developers do not step up to the task of making sure that they step up to their responsibilities. And that's one of the reasons we've been working with the UK Government on their Bill, because only the UK has the power to change the liabilities clauses and the limitation periods on contract law, which is what you're talking about there. And that's one of the difficulties of this area of law, because some of it is not devolved, some of it's reserved and some of it isn't. So, we've been trying to navigate that as we go along. So, the UK Government has, as I said in my statement, recently committed to extending the limitation period for people who are about to go into occupation of a building, so they will have 30 years to take the developer to task in future.
There will be other things that need to be done, so we will be working very hard with conveyancing and estate agent professionals in order to ensure that the information that people get when they buy their property is fit for purpose. And that includes all of the issues around leaseholding, charges and responsibilities as well, Jenny, both before and after the White Paper. Obviously, after the White Paper, it will be a lot simpler and more straightforward.

Thank you, Minister.

8. The Curriculum for Wales—Relationships and Sexuality Education Code

The next item is item 8, the Curriculum for Wales, relationships and sexuality education code, and I call on the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to move the motion—Jeremy Miles.

Motion NDM7864 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves that the draft The Curriculum for Wales – Relationships and Sexuality Education Code is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 23 November 2021.

Motion moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I am very pleased to move the relationships and sexuality education code for consideration by the Senedd.
We need to help our children and young people to go from strength to strength in all aspects of life, so that they grow to be adults who are healthy and confident individuals. Relationships and sexuality education has a positive and protective role to play in education. Schools and other settings have an important role to deliver in terms of creating a safe and empowering environment that supports the rights of learners to enjoy healthy and safe relationships throughout their lives.
We also know that children and young people who have strong relationships and positive views of themselves and who can understand and control their emotions and well-being are better placed to achieve their full potential in the future. Relationships and sexuality education will place these principles at the core of learning. We want our young people to prosper so that they can respond positively to a world that is changing and to be ready for the life that's facing them.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Jeremy Miles AC: Children have the right to access information that keeps them safe from harm and that allows them to navigate the complex world we live in—one that is very different to the world that we grew up in. As a society, we're becoming ever more aware of advances in technology, including the rising influence of social media and increased use of digital communications and devices. In this context, RSE is an important support in enabling learners to navigate these changes and to keep them safe from harm.
There's also an important role for RSE to respond to a wide range of alarming issues and challenges that young people face, which have been highlighted more recently, whether it's staying safe online, peer-on-peer sexual harassment, or the exposure of children and young people to sexual imagery and pornography. It's essential that our learners have an understanding of these issues, but it is also essential that we support them to be safe in an inclusive environment that is supportive of all children and that we equip our teachers and practitioners to deal with these issues. We have maintained that all learning in RSE should be developmentally appropriate and the phases outlined within the code are a guide to give practitioners an understanding of what is likely to be developmentally appropriate. Promoting and supporting healthy relationships is already a key part of our approach to end violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and has already informed the new Curriculum for Wales. The Welsh Government’s new draft VAWDASV strategy will run alongside the new relationships and sexuality education code and statutory guidance.
More broadly, we continue to promote healthy relationships in the way we support families and vulnerable individuals. By promoting a consistent concept of what healthy relationships look like, we will support our whole-society approach to end the abuse of women and girls in Wales. Our new strategy for VAWDASV will be delivered through a genuine partnership approach, including education, health, police, specialist services, and survivors to create the blueprint for action.
On 26 November, I wrote to Members of the Senedd, sharing the draft RSE statutory guidance. Within this guidance, which must be read with the code, Members will note it is clear that the approach to RSE should be positive, protective and preventative, considering how learners can be supported to have the knowledge to recognise all forms of discrimination, violence, abuse and neglect, including violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. A link is included to a toolkit of resources to support schools and settings on the issue of violence against women and girls.
I would like to particularly pay tribute to and thank organisations such as the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, Welsh Women’s Aid and others for their continued support for mandatory RSE and their input over recent months as we strengthen this area of learning within the statutory guidance and code, which will support learners’ safety by enabling them to recognise unsafe or harmful relationships and situations.
Estyn’s recent report on peer-on-peer sexual harassment in education settings is very challenging to read, and the prevalence of peer-on-peer sexual harassment in our society amongst young people is unacceptable. It is also clear that violence against women and girls is far too common, and I strongly believe that mandatory RSE will help support learners to form and maintain a range of healthy relationships based on mutual trust and respect. Estyn’s report also highlighted that our LGBTQ+ pupils have substantial personal experiences of verbal, homophobic harassment. Any form of bullying is completely unacceptable.
RSE will be realised, Dirprwy Llywydd, in a way that is inclusive, in accordance with the principles of equality. This helps ensure that all learners can see themselves, their families, their communities and each other reflected across the curriculum and can learn to value difference and diversity as a source of strength. This, of course, includes gender equity and LGBTQ+ inclusivity. This contributes to a cohesive, fair and equitable society that equips learners with the skills for life. We are clear that effective RSE requires specialist expertise, time and resources. This will ensure a supportive environment is created to enable learners and practitioners to be safe, in order to discuss and learn about issues that may be sensitive or challenging.
A key priority for us over the coming months will be to support schools and setting ahead of the implementation of RSE. A national plan for professional learning for RSE is currently being developed with practitioners and partners. Earlier this year I announced a budget of £100,000 to support the development of high-quality RSE resources, which will help develop teachers’ confidence and understanding in delivering high-quality, inclusive RSE. We are in dialogue with key stakeholders and practitioners to identify any gaps and to commission new, high-quality resources, where required, to support that implementation. Our national network conversations with the sector will also provide an opportunity to discuss RSE implementation further.
I wish to thank the practitioners within the RSE working group for their hard work and for their dedication and commitment in developing this code. I’d also like to offer thanks to the organisations spanning religion, rights, stakeholders representing children’s interests, and experts for their involvement in developing this code. You are far too many in number to name individually, but my thanks is no less personal. I am so proud that this RSE code commands so much consensus and support from across civic society. I look forward to the contributions in the debate and to dialogue with Members on this important area of learning. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Firstly, I think it’s quite frankly appalling that we have a mere 30 minutes to debate something that is so fundamentally important, in the last week of recess.

Laura Anne Jones AC: There is so much wrong with the code in its current form, and the guidance, which is of extreme importance and a guide to our teachers. This vital guidance, initially missing, this Government published late last night. To be scrutinised properly, a mere 30-minute debate is an insult to the Senedd, the parents, teachers and children across Wales.
Deputy Presiding Officer, before I attempt to address the multitude of concern from these benches, I thank the Presiding Officer for previously recognising the importance of this debate and allowing more flexibility with timings, which I hope that you will extend to my contribution, as sufficient time needs to be allocated for this to be scrutinised and debated sufficiently. It is vital that we get this right and it's not rushed through, as this will hugely impact on generations of children in Wales.
We all want high-quality, safe, age-appropriate, fully inclusive, scientifically accurate relationship and sex education for our children. The new curriculum will provide a unique opportunity for us to finally address some of the current pressing issues of our day and educate them to promote healthy relationships, awareness, and to protect our children. We welcome this. However, we need to get it right. They need to be the right messages, the right content, delivered by fully trained teachers or outside bodies that adhere to strict guidelines set. Therefore, these guidelines and the code need to be clear and based in reality. Even the title concerns me—removing the word 'sex' from the title of RSE and replacing it with 'sexuality'—as does removing all references to 'girl', 'boy', 'woman'. It is ridiculously confusing, dangerous to limit using gender, and strikes me as a Government more concerned in promoting ideology than teaching our children facts and protecting them. The omission of any terms of gender in the code is quite frankly staggering. What has been presented is not fact-based, biologically accurate sex education but an indoctrination of children in gender-identity ideology. The erasure of 'sex' undermines safeguarding, erodes the concept of privacy, boundaries and consent, putting girls particularly at risk—a code where girls and women are invisible, apart from references to their bodily functions, is more than counterintuitive. Girls and women exist, and it's staggering that a small minority are trying to erase us from society.
Our priority needs to be safeguarding children, presenting them with the facts in an age-appropriate manner. I wholeheartedly agree with the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales, who has spoken out against this code today, and I reiterate her calls and think that it would be a completely reasonable step to specifically and clearly include the need for understanding about the gendered basis of violence and the specific gendered issues for healthy relationships to be included on the face of the RSE code. And, reacting to a rebuttal from the Government, it is true that Acts have been referenced in these documents, namely the Equality Act 2010 and the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, but, beyond that, there is nothing at all in the learning outcomes that has the power to alter current male patterns or attitudes to sexual and domestic violence. Given these crimes are increasing, especially in schools, as you know, Minister, it is vital to grasp the opportunity now to address this. Likewise, the Equality Act has been referenced. I could go on, but, Deputy Presiding, there's no time. But, essentially, the purpose of this Act is eroded in this code. The success of this code will depend on buy-in and co-operation from parents, carers, families and teachers across Wales, but these are a hard-to-follow, confused and not factually correct code and guidance, using ill-defined terms that have no basis in law and, I believe, will not get that buy-in.
So far, this Welsh Government have wilfully ignored a multitude of concerns raised in the initial draft, and the guidance still fails to address a variety of issues. There is still no mention of the standards required for third-party suppliers or deliverers of educational material, which, in my opinion, needs to be approved by Estyn. The language in the code remains desexed, incorrect and confusing, which could actually have an adverse effect, Minister. I'd like to go on, but, again, not enough time. And still no inclusion of the impact on society and individuals of pornography—age appropriately, of course. In fact, age appropriateness is one of the most important things we need to ensure throughout these documents. But, due to the easiness and growing trend of sharing images on social media, as we've spoken about recently in the Senedd, this needs to be addressed.
Finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, there remain many glaring and obvious omissions in these documents, and it's highly confusing in content and is not fit for purpose. It is fundamental that this guidance needs to be clear, concise and watertight if it is going to be a guide to teaching RSE consistently across Wales and if it's going to have the desired effect. If this code goes through as it stands, I warn this Senedd it will not address the issues it sets out to, it will not address what this Government itself wants to address, and it will not be a worthy contribution to improving the lives of the next generations of Welsh children. We the Welsh Conservatives will be voting against this today, and I urge the Senedd to follow suit. I hope that this guidance can be brought back, and revised, to the Senedd in the new year and scrutinised properly, as it deserves and should be. Thank you.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you to the Minister for the statement. I'm very pleased to contribute to this important debate on behalf of Plaid Cymru. This is such a crucial aspect of the new curriculum, and an aspect that we have been consistently supportive of throughout the journey of the new curriculum through the Senedd, as it will hopefully lead to a historic opportunity to nurture attitudes and respect for equality in our society in relation to sex, gender and sexuality.
I'm very pleased to note that RSE has received widespread support from practitioners and teachers alike, as well as public bodies and parents. Those who responded to the consultation on the draft code were generally supportive of the general approach to dealing with RSE, with positive responses to the approach taken steered by various different viewpoints. Many of those who responded understood that providing relationships and sexuality education would be effective in supporting the well-being of children and young people and in promoting the rights of the child, and that the provision reflects or builds on current teaching practice in schools.
In terms of the well-being of children and young people, it was recognised that appropriate provision would provide opportunities for them to develop their information, their skills and their confidence in examining their social spheres confidently, and would safeguard their emotional and physical health. Ultimately, the aim, of course, is that it will enable children and young people to find their way confidently and safely within a society that is continually changing—a society that is very different to the one that we were brought up in, as the Minister said.
In addition, relationships and sexuality education was considered crucial in providing an understanding and appreciation of relationships based on respect, and in providing balanced, unbiased information that can protect and empower young people—an idea that is further supported by the added emphasis on the rights of the child within these proposals, which emerge from the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.
Following the consultation on the draft code, changes have been made, and these have been outlined partially by the Minister. So, I would hope that the Minister could provide more detail on these changes, the rationale behind the changes to the code and how he believes these changes will have a positive impact or will strengthen the provision of relationship and sexuality education.

Sioned Williams MS: Positives aside, certain issues that pertain to relationships and sexuality remain prevalent in Welsh society, and I hope that, in responding to this debate, the Minister can shed some light on how this aspect of the curriculum will help remedy these problems. As we heard in a recent Estyn report, it was found that pupils are pressured regularly to send nude photos, and girls harassed over the length of their skirts. In this regard, about half of secondary pupils said they had experienced sexual harassment from fellow pupils, that twice as many girls said they had faced sexual harassment from boys, while 46 of those who'd experienced it decided not to tell anyone else. It's shocking, but not entirely surprising to see that 71 per cent of male pupils and 82 per cent of female pupils had reported seeing peer-on-peer sexual harassment in secondary schools.
We welcome the whole-education approach taken to ending misogyny and violence against women and girls in the new curriculum. And in light of these alarming findings in the Estyn report, it's clearer than ever that we need robust RSE provision in our curriculum, and that this provision empowers pupils to trust their teachers, stand up to their peers and report all forms of sexual harassment. The Minister's response to this debate could hopefully clarify how RSE provision could go about remedying this horrible and ongoing problem in our schools.
As the Minister referenced in his statement, Estyn inspectors also found that many LGBTQ+ pupils had substantial personal experiences of homophobic bullying and harassment, with most LGBTQ+ pupils surveyed by Estyn saying they felt only a few teachers would do anything about it if they heard homophobic slurs being used against them. It's concerning to note that some of the more oppositional consultation responses often masked prejudice and discriminatory attitudes against transgender people, so I'd like to go on record and reaffirm my and my party's commitment to ensure that LGBTQ+ voices and experiences need to be heard and affirmed, and our continuing promise to actively promote LGBTQ+ rights. In responding to this debate, I'd appreciate it if the Minister could further explain how the RSE code will help LGBTQ+ students, as well as their colleagues and teachers, to create a more understanding, empowering and compassionate environment in our schools.

Sioned Williams MS: I also believe that—

You need to conclude now.

Sioned Williams MS: In conclusion, I also think that we need to look at how other subjects within the new curriculum would strengthen or would enforce RSE in its core aims. Plaid Cymru has long campaigned to see more emphasis on Welsh history, including the LGBTQ+ history of Wales, in the new curriculum, and I'm pleased to see reference to this in our co-operation agreement with the Government. It is crucial that pupils learn about the historic context, how we got to where we are today as a society, if they are to understand and find their way within that society. So, I'd like to know, in conclusion, how RSE is to be reflected and supported by other subjects within the curriculum, such as history. Thank you.

Darren Millar AC: I'll be voting against the Welsh Government's relationships and sexuality education code today. As the Minister will be well aware from debates that were held in the previous Senedd, I regard parents as the primary educators of their children, not the state, and I believe that the Welsh Government's removal of the parental right to withdraw their children from sex education lessons was a massive retrograde step for parental rights and choice, and, given the fact that parents can no longer withdraw their children from sex education lessons, it is absolutely critical that the new RSE code is as respectful and accommodating as possible to the wide variety of views that people hold on this very important subject. But I regret that the code before us today and the draft statutory guidance that was shared with Members late this morning do not do that. What is clear is that the Welsh Government is trying to disguise a controversial set of ideas over which there's a great deal of debate as some sort of settled catalogue of truths that all pupils in the country should be taught. But the reality is far from that. The reality is that there's a great deal of debate, even within the LGBTQ+ community, on the impact that the code may have, particularly on women's rights, and there are real concerns that the views of faith and black, Asian and minority ethniccommunities across Wales risk being demonised and discriminated against.
The code is very heavy on respect, but it's clear that that respect does not seem to extend to many Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, members of other faiths, members of the LGBTQ+ community or those whose views may be at odds with those espoused by the Welsh Government. The evidence suggests that the code and the draft guidance have been influenced heavily from a particularly woke ideological viewpoint, and the draft guidance in particular screams 'woke'. Out of the 4,000 words of which it's comprised, we see the words 'male' mentioned just once; 'female' twice, both in relation to female genital mutilation; 'men' doesn't appear at all, and neither do the words 'girl', 'boy', 'straight' or 'heterosexual'. Any relationships and sexuality education code that seeks to avoid these words simply isn't worth the paper it's written on.
Now, as the Government of the day, I respect that you have the right to design the curriculum in the way that you see fit, but you do not have the right to teach children as young as 11 an inappropriate, sexually loaded curriculum, promoting an understanding of how of how all are entitled to, and I quote, 'pleasurable relationships'. Doing that without parental consent, in my view, is wholly unacceptable, so I urge all Members today to reject this code and the draft guidance emanating from it, and I urge the Welsh Government to go back to the drawing board, to engage more with parents, to engage more with faith communities and a more diverse range of voices from the LGBTQ+ community. Develop a new code that addresses their concerns, I urge you.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I respectfully disagree with Darren Millar. I think it's really, really terrible for children's rights if they don't know what's happening to them when they're going through puberty. Why is it that so many girls have no idea what is going to happen to them when they start their period? And that is just shocking, and very frightening and unnecessarily slow. And we really do live in the worst of all worlds, where sex is used to sell everything, whether it's harmful pornography or it's to sell the latest shoes, or the football, or a car. So, we absolutely have to get to grips with this, as we saw in Meilyr Rowlands's devastating report on what we already knew was happening—the peer-on-peer sexual harassment that goes on through people's smartphones and other online platforms. It's really, really uncomfortable, and most of this bullying and sexual harassment doesn't go on in schools, it's going on outside school, although it may well be going on in school too. But it really, really underlines the importance of the collaborative partnership with families, as well as the right of the young person to get some sense into different relationships that both children and adults have. This is the reality of their lives, and if we're not explaining to them how they may wish to explore their personality and their sexuality, without giving them any context for all the other horrible things that sex is used for, to corrupt people's heads as well as their lives—. We really have to take this matter really, really seriously. And I have confidence in the ability of teachers to address this matter in an age-appropriate way that gives people comfort that there's nothing unusual about their particular family situation, because it comes in all shapes and sizes, whilst we are having commercial interests who are targeting children and young people and getting them to think about things in a way that is totally artificial and harmful.
So, we really do have to address this, because otherwise we are going to have people growing up thinking that sex is all about being brutal and violent, and absolutely it is not. It's all about being loving, and firm friendships and respect for each other. So, we really do have a big problem here, and I suppose my question today to the Minister is whether or not he thinks that we should be banning smartphones in schools and really advising parents it is not a great idea to be giving smartphones to young people where they can access all the harmful stuff that goes on on the internet that's, at the moment, sadly, completely uncontrolled.

Gareth Davies AS: The draft of this RSE code is a vast improvement on the one sent out with the consultation. However, as it stands today we can't support it. We do still have some huge concerns, which I hope the Minister can address, and bring back a revised code that all in this Chamber can support.
The guiding principle of the relationships and sexuality education code, at least according to the Act, is that RSE lessons must be developmentally appropriate for learners. I am concerned that this code fails to adequately demonstrate how this can and will be achieved. The fact that schools and early years settings will have to decide what is developmentally appropriate for each child places undue burdens on those settings. How are schools and early years settings equipped to make those decisions? Teachers are not experts in child development, yet they are being asked to analyse each child and make a determination of their stage of development. This code has been developed with broad-stroke phases, which, according to the document itself,
'have been designed to give practitioners an understanding of what is likely to be developmentally appropriate.'
And this is not good enough.
It is also concerning that, within classes or year groups, children could be taught differently, as they are at different stages of development, but it is not clear that there will be safeguards in place to prevent children accessing material that is not developmentally appropriate for them. The lack of safeguards makes this whole code unsuitable. That, together with the fact that we are being asked to improve the code without ever seeing the accompanying guidance—

Gareth, could you hang on a second? Joyce Watson, do you want to make an intervention? Joyce, do you want to make an intervention? I can see you're signalling.

Joyce Watson AC: Yes, I do. Thank you.

Gareth Davies AS: Apologies for that. I didn't see you.

Gareth, will you take an intervention?

Gareth Davies AS: Well, I'm nearly finished. I'm near as finished, Deputy Llywydd, so I'm not sure there'd be much point, really.

It's your choice, Gareth.

Gareth Davies AS: No, I'm nearly concluded, Deputy Llywydd.

Okay, thank you. Joyce, sorry. Go on, Gareth.

Gareth Davies AS: Yes. We're being asked to approve the code without even seeing the accompanying guidance, which means that there is no way that we can approve this code today, and I urge Members to reject the Government's motion and call upon Ministers to redraft the RSEcode with some stronger evidence. Thank you very much.

Sam Rowlands MS: I must also say that I'm disappointed that just 30 minutes has been tabled for this really important item this evening now, and also disappointed that that draft guidance was only published late last night. It does make it difficult to properly scrutinise a really important area of work. That aside, whilst much of the intention of the code presented today may be good, I do share Members' concerns with the lack of acknowledgement and the lack of a clearly identified role of parents in their responsibility in educating and supporting their children.
First and foremost, it's a parent's responsibility to ensure that their children are educated in the way that they see is best and most appropriate for their child and it's important to remember that parents are ultimately responsible for their child's education and well-being, and it's parents who know their children best, and the role of Government is to support parents in undertaking this amazing privilege and this great responsibility. So, with this in mind, it's deeply concerning that, under this code, parents won't have a choice in this very personal and very important area of learning—right from the young age of three years old, the state will have that intervention, with no choice of parents there.
And indeed, I've had a number of teachers actually contact me regarding their concerns at this shift from a traditional parent-led model of education to now much more responsibility and pressure being put on them as teachers. So, aside from that parental choice, I've also had teachers getting in touch to express their concern about the lack of protection afforded to girls and women in this code, and I'd like to quote from one teacher who wrote to me on this matter, and they said:
'The Welsh Government are promoting an ideology in our schools which is not supported by strong evidence. Teachers should be supported in helping to make sure that our pupils are given age-appropriate and scientifically accurate relationship and sex education. We should also be supporting the Equality Act 2010, where sex is a protected characteristic and the provision of single-sex services, spaces and protections are permitted to ensure women's safety, privacy and dignity.'
That's a quote there from a teacher who wrote to me on this issue. And I think this teacher highlights a really important point, which I hope the Minister will take time to reflect on and bring back a better version of what's in front of us here today.
So, in light of this, and my significant concern in relation to the general direction of travel in pushing aside parent-centric education, I'll be voting against this rushed and ill-thought-out code, which will take responsibility away from parents and put more pressure on our teachers. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I call on the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to reply.

Jeremy Miles AC: Deputy Llywydd, may I thank those Members who've contributed on the code that is the subject of our debate today? May I first of all thank Sioned Williams for the way she framed her comments during this debate? The substance of contributions is important, but the tone is also very important on an issue as important as this, so I'm grateful to her for that, and for referring to the broad support that exists for the documents that are before us today and the work that's happened in a broad range of organisations, taking in a broad range of voices too, in order to create the policies and documents before us today—the kinds of voices that Darren Millar encouraged us to ensure to be allowed to contribute to the debate. They have contributed, and I want to repeat her thanks to them for doing so.
Sioned Williams specifically asked me what changes have happened as a result of that consultation process. Well, there have been a broad range of changes, which just demonstrates the depth of the consultation responses that we received, in terms of rights, in terms of the UNCRC, in terms of principles around safety and in terms of the role of parents, which Darren Millar and Sam Rowlands mentioned. All of those have seen some advances and changes as a result of the consultation. Estyn worked with us to ensure that their work in our schools—and Sioned Williams referred to this—is looking at harassment, and that the fruit of that work was also incorporated into the code. So, I'm grateful to them for that.
There is more work needed in terms of professional training, there is more work needed in terms of resources, and those are an important part of the responses to the challenges described by Estyn, which are at the heart of many of the arrangements in place in this code today. She asked me what the contribution of the code would be to an understanding of LGBT communities; as a gay man myself I'm very pleased to have the opportunity to bring this code forward today, a code that is inclusive and which allows us to see our identity reflected in the debate within our schools in a very appropriate manner.

Jeremy Miles AC: Laura Anne Jones made an opening contribution and I think I would say, more in sorrow than in anger, that I disagreed with almost every part of her contribution. I think it simply did not reflect the reality of the code and the statutory guidance that we have before us here today.
Just for the record, Dirprwy Lywydd, I think Laura Anne Jones and Sam Rowlands believed that the guidance had been published last night, Darren Millar believed it was published this morning, and Gareth Davies didn't believe that it had been published at all; just for the record, it was shared with Members, as is conventional, on 26 November. Conventionally, it would be published after this debate because it relates to a code that has not yet been approved by the Senedd. So, I wanted to publish it in advance, in light of the discussion that was happening around the code in advance of this debate. It has been available to Members for at least two weeks, which I hope other Members at least will have found helpful.
There are references aplenty, as I mentioned in my opening statement, to some of the points that Laura Anne Jones was challenging me on. It is very clear from the statutory guidance, Dirprwy Lywydd, how important the VAWDASV legislation is as part of this scheme, and how important this policy is in part of our broader policy to eliminate violence against women and girls. I hope I made that very clear in my opening remarks and it's certainly clear from the statutory guidance. Laura Anne Jones also indicated that there was an absence of references to both, I think, pornography and gender stereotypes. Both are dealt with explicitly, Dirprwy Lywydd, for the record, referring to learner's understanding of and awareness of how sexual material in the media often represents gender, sexual activity, bodily appearance and relationships in unrealistic and harmful ways, and the importance of learners knowing how to safely respond to and challenge gender and sexual stereotypes and unfair behaviours. Those are both set out in the letter that I sent to Members this morning, responding to some of the public discussion and debate.
Dirprwy Lywydd, if I may, one of the most important contributions we can make in this Senedd is to take those steps together that help make us a more inclusive, kinder and healthier nation, and I hope you'll forgive me a personal reflection: I look at these new RSE reforms and think how much I myself would have benefited from a curriculum that had this kind of teaching at its heart, one in which my younger self could see himself reflected back at him, and a wonderful boost to well-being, to self-respect and the security that that would bring. Those were different times, Dirprwy Lywydd, but if we are truly committed to giving our children and young people an education that allows them to see themselves at its heart, to keep them safe from harm and equipped to develop healthy relationships, then let's take that next step on that journey today. So, I'd like to thank everyone who will cast their vote today for this code. It's an important act, Dirprwy Lywydd. For some of us, an inclusive Wales is more than a political objective; it's an essential precondition to well-being and, indeed, to safety. And, Dirprwy Lywydd, these reforms help make that a reality for all our children today, and for our future generations.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections, so I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Next, in accordance with Standing Order 12.24, unless a Member objects, the two motions under items 9 and 10, the Local Elections (Principal Areas) (Wales) Rules 2021 and the Local Elections (Communities) (Wales) Rules 2021, will be grouped for debate, but with votes taken separately. I don't see any objections.

9. & 10. The Local Elections (Principal Areas) (Wales) Rules 2021, and The Local Elections (Communities) (Wales) Rules 2021

I therefore call the Minister for Finance and Local Government, Rebecca Evans.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Motion NDM7865 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves that the draft The Local Elections (Principal Areas) (Wales) Rules 2021 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 23 November 2021.

Motion NDM7866 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves that the draft The Local Elections (Communities) (Wales) Rules 2021 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 23 November 2021.

Motions moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: Elections are essential to our democracy, and anything that impacts them should be taken seriously. I'm pleased to bring these regulations before you and to hear the views of colleagues in the Chamber today on the Local Elections (Principal Areas) (Wales) Rules 2021 and the Local Elections (Communities) (Wales) Rules 2021. For the first time ever, the legislation to be debated consolidates—.
I think I was having some technical issues there, Llywydd. I'm not sure how far I got into my remarks before you lost me, but I'll try and return to—. Hello, Llywydd.

Can I be heard at this point?

Rebecca Evans AC: I can hear you.

Okay. I think we heard everything you said there, Rebecca, so you can resume. We can still hear you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Great, okay. I'm going to switch to my paper copy because my screen isn't working properly.

All right, okay. Your screen is working fine for the purposes of being seen and heard.

Rebecca Evans AC: Okay. Diolch, Llywydd. For the first time ever, the legislation to be debated consolidates the rules for local elections bilingually, and is specifically tailored to Welsh elections and our own franchise. I want to thank the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their consideration of these two large pieces of legislation, for highlighting the clarity of the supporting documentation, and welcoming the consolidation of the law in this area.
The existing rules that govern the administration of our elections generally worked well, and ensured our electoral processes are transparent and fair. But, they were drawn up on an England and Wales basis and were written in English only. The Local Elections (Principal Areas) (Wales) Rules 2021 and the Local Elections (Communities) (Wales) Rules 2021 consolidate the law in this area where necessary, modernise the language and make it more accessible. Most importantly, these statutory instruments make the practical changes to the rules for council elections in Wales, made necessary by the new franchise included in the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021.
This will be the first time that 16 and 17-year-olds and qualifying foreign citizens will be able to vote in local government elections in Wales. The rules that we're debating are the culmination of an in-depth period of consultation that began with the devolution of electoral law to Wales, and the 'Electoral reform in local government in Wales' consultation document in 2017. Whilst the majority of the practices that ensure the smooth running of our elections remain unchanged, some important new rules will be introduced, many of which will help to make standing as a candidate more accessible.
Candidates at local elections will have the option not to publish their home address, if they wish. Returning officers must make arrangements for candidates to submit their nomination papers electronically. Candidates at principal council elections will be able to self-nominate and will no longer need to obtain the names of 10 local elector subscribers. Candidates at community council elections will also be able to self-nominate, and will not need to obtain the names of two local elector subscribers.
Candidates will need to include on nomination forms details of political party membership in the preceding 12 months. This will provide important additional information to the electorate. The new rules have retained the current formulas associated with the number of polling and counting agents who may be present at the count. These have been retained in light of responses to the consultation and learning from the running of the Senedd election counts last year. I look forward to hearing the views of Members.

Well, I'm afraid to say you're going to be disappointed, because I have nobody to call at this point. Nobody has expressed an intention to speak. I can't see anybody volunteering at this point to share their views with you, Minister. I suspect that you don't need, then, to respond to anything that's not been said, unless you want to say anything as a closing remark.

Rebecca Evans AC: No, I just thank again the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their consideration of the work. I know that colleagues will agree with me that having a set of rules specifically for Welsh local elections will vastly improve the accessibility of the law in this area, and it is a really significant step forward for Welsh elections. Diolch.

Thank you. Thank you, Minister. The proposal is to agree the motion under item 9. Does any Member object? No. I don't see an objection, and therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The next proposal is to agree the motion under item 10. Does any Member object? I see no objections to that either. The motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

11. The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 21) Regulations 2021

We move now to item 11, the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 21) Regulations 2021. I call on the Minister for health to move the motion. Eluned Morgan.

Motion NDM7863 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 21) Regulations 2021 laid in the Table Office on 2 December 2021.

Motion moved.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. I move the motion before us today. Throughout the pandemic, this Government has worked quickly in response to the latest scientific and medical advice. Our views have been proportionate: we've relaxed restrictions when it was safe to do so, and tightened up those restrictions when entirely necessary in order to safeguard Wales.
Since 7 August, individuals who are fully vaccinated, and those under the age of 18, don't have to self-isolate if they are identified as a close contact of a positive coronavirus case. But in response to an increase in cases, our advice changed on 29 October to recommend that household contacts who are vaccinated or under 18 should self-isolate until they get a negative PCR test result. It's a requirement for contacts who are unvaccinated to isolate for 10 days in both scenarios. The context of the pandemic has changed once again.

Eluned Morgan AC: As Members are aware, the omicron variant of coronavirus was first detected on 23 November and was designated a variant of concern by the World Health Organization on 26 November. We now have multiple cases in Wales, and signs of community transmission across the UK. We are prepared to respond rapidly to any emerging variant—[Interruption.] Excuse me. I'm very sorry. Any emerging variants of concern, through intensive investigations and robust public health actions to slow any spread within our communities. Whilst we are still learning about the omicron variant, its emergence is a serious development and a threat to public health. Whilst numbers remain very small, it is important that we do everything to find and contain the spread of the variant to delay community transmission as long as possible, whilst we learn more and are able to give more people their booster.
The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 21) Regulations 2021 provide that when an adult has been notified that they had close contact with a person who has tested positive for coronavirusthat is, or may be, the omicron variant, the adult must self-isolate for 10 days, regardless of their vaccination status. And, when an adult is notified that a child for whom they are responsible has been a close contact of someone who has tested positive for coronavirus that is, or may be, the omicron variant, the child must isolate for 10 days.

Eluned Morgan AC: Llywydd, let me be clear. These new measures have not been introduced lightly, but with this high level of uncertainty, it is right that we continue to be guarded. The new measures in the regulations will help us to safeguard Wales as we understand the new variant better and decide on our next steps. I am very pleased that we have an opportunity to discuss this motion today. I look forward to hearing the comments of Members and I encourage Members to support the motion.

I now call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee to contribute—Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Llywydd and thank you, Minister. We considered these regulations at our meeting yesterday, and our report was laid immediately afterwards.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Our report raised what Members will now recognise as quite familiar merits points under Standing Order 21.3, namely highlighting any potential interference with human rights and the lack of formal consultation. Our third merits reporting point notes that the explanatory memorandum accompanying the regulations makes no reference to an equality impact assessment. We asked the Welsh Government to explain what arrangements it has made in respect of these regulations to publish reports of equality impact assessments in accordance with the Equality Act 2010 (Statutory Duties) (Wales) Regulations 2011. In its response, the Welsh Government told us that, whilst a full regulatory impact assessment has not been prepared and published in relation specifically to these regulations because of the need to put them in place urgently, a summary impact assessment will be published as soon as practically possible.
This is not the first time that our committee has raised a merits point asking the Welsh Government to explain what arrangements it has made as regards equality impact assessments. It is becoming something of a recurring theme that, unfortunately, the Minister is getting caught up in here. I'd like to take this opportunity to again provide some what I hope is genuinely constructive feedback to the Welsh Government. I think it would help—and our committee thinks it would help—Senedd Members and the Welsh Government, and anyone, in fact, following the Senedd's scrutiny of these matters, if the explanatory memoranda to coronavirus regulations provided information about equality impact assessments just as a matter of course. Including what should be basic information in these explanatory memoranda would, in our view, be relatively straightforward to do and lead to greater transparency in the making of the legislation. Minister, thank you very much and I hope that that's a helpful suggestion for future regulations of this type. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

James Evans MS: The Welsh Conservatives will be supporting these measures today, which we believe are proportionate and clearly beneficial for the physical health of the Welsh public. We agree with the provisions for domestic self-isolation to reflect the emerging situation and slow down community transmission of the virus. We will be supporting you today. However, we should always remember the unintended consequences of restrictions and lockdowns on the mental health and well-being of the residents of Wales. We saw that, during the last set of restrictions, the number of people seeking help got bigger and bigger. So, can the Minister outline what steps and consideration the Welsh Government are giving to the impact of any future restrictions on the health and well-being of the people of Wales? Diolch, Llywydd.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you to the Minister. We will be supporting these new regulations today. They are very sensible at a time that is clearly a dangerous one during this pandemic. It is important that we do the fundamentals right and, of course, isolation is one of those fundamentals and we need to be quite strict on that at this point. So, I welcome this change that appears to us to be proportionate to the new threat that we are facing. As a result of the new variant, my appeal is the same: whilst hoping, as I said earlier, that we will not need to take strict measures in terms of introducing broad-ranging restrictions on individuals and society between now and Christmas, I do believe that it's important as a matter of principle that if there is an intention to bring those forward, we as a Senedd do have an opportunity to gather virtually in order to scrutinise and vote on that too. Thank you.

The Minister to reply—Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr. Thank you, Huw, and thanks for the consideration of your committee. I just would appeal to you to consider the kind of urgency with which we had to introduce these. Of course we're always very anxious to do an equality impact assessment, and that summary impact assessment will be done as soon as practically possible. Of course, all the people who are all hands on deck at the moment are being asked to do so many additional things at the same time. So, we're very keen. I take on board your suggestion. I'll see how practical that is and whether that would have made a difference in this particular instance because of the urgency of the situation.
James, we are acutely aware of the unintended consequences of asking people to self-isolate, in particular on people's mental health, and that's why I discussed with the Deputy Minister for mental health the impact on mental health this week, about what we're doing in this space, and she was very clear to me that she has asked for further promotion of the CALL mental health helpline to be promoted in the face of this.
Rhun, thank you, obviously we will keep the Senedd informed in terms of any proposed changes. We are dealing with this in real time. It happens to fall at a time when the Senedd will be closing, and obviously we'll be keeping in close contact with the Llywydd, who I'm sure will make some judgments as to whether or not the Senedd will need to be recalled.

The proposal is to agree the motion on these regulations. Does any Member object? I don't see any objections. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

12. Legislative Consent Motion on the Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Bill

We now move to item 12, the legislative consent motion on the Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Bill. I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move the motion—Julie James.

Motion NDM7867 Julie James
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6, agrees that provisions in the Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion. The Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Bill is a short Bill that starts the process of dealing with a very big topic, leasehold reform. The Bill's stated policy objectives are to make leasehold ownership fairer and more affordable for leaseholders by ensuring that freeholders will no longer be able to make financial demands for ground rent of new leases. The Bill does this by restricting ground rent on newly established long residential leases of houses and flats to a token one peppercorn per year. This effectively means ground rents on new leases will have zero financial value. The Bill also prohibits the levying of administration charges in relation to peppercorn rents, thus preventing such charges becoming an alternative means of extracting profit.
The Bill does not deal with the issues affecting existing leaseholders. Further legislation will be required to reform leasehold home ownership, including the reforms that are being proposed by the Law Commission, which I have previously welcomed. This Bill paves the way for those further reforms by stopping ground rents being charged on new leases. Resolving the problems on existing leases is a much more complex issue, as is reflected by the very detailed recommendations produced by the Law Commission.
I thank the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and the Local Government and Housing Committee for the work they have done in considering and reporting on the legislative consent memorandum. I note the concerns they've raised in their reports, including their criticism of the approach we took to the laying of the supplementary memorandum, and I have responded in writing to a number of their recommendations. But, I strongly believe that consenting to UK Government legislation that delivers vital improvements to a system that we all regard as unfair is entirely appropriate—indeed, absolutely the right thing to do.
I've previously set out my intention to work in collaboration with the UK Government to deliver the wholesale legislative reform of leasehold, of which this Bill is but a first step. To ensure that they comprehensively address all of the issues, it is possible that these reforms relate to the devolved matter of housing as well as matters that are not within the competence of the Senedd. In order to achieve comprehensive reform that works for leaseholders in Wales that does not leave potential gaps in protection, I consider that UK legislation is most likely to be the most effective and sensible way of approaching these reforms.
But, let me be clear: if the provisions of this Bill were not to apply in Wales, future leaseholders here would be at a very considerable financial disadvantage compared with their counterparts in England. Any legislation we might put forward to rectify that situation would inevitably take a very considerable time to draft and agree. I do not think that leaseholders in Wales should be placed in that position and I therefore urge Members to support the motion and consent to the Bill. Diolch.

I now call on the Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee, John Griffiths.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. We laid our report as a committee on this LCM yesterday afternoon. Leasehold reform is an area of interest for the committee, and the Welsh Government's plans for reform were something that we raised with you, Minister, during our scrutiny session on 22 September.
We welcome the decision to set ground rent on new leases to a token one peppercorn per year, effectively restricting ground rents to zero financial value. We note that the Bill does not apply to existing leases. We also note that the Bill does not address other weaknesses in the leasehold system, such as service charges and other issues faced by leaseholders. Minister, are you able to give an update on the next steps for the programme of leasehold reform and the programme for government commitment to enact the recommendations of the Law Commission?
Our committee first considered the LCM on 22 September. However, that LCM was out of date because amendments conferring powers on the Welsh Ministers to make delegated legislation were made to the Bill on 20 July, but a supplementary LCM was not laid. We wrote to the Minister on 24 September, asking when a supplementary LCM relating to those amendments would be published. Unfortunately, the Minister did not lay one until 26 November, four months after the Bill had been amended. Of course, the Senedd's Standing Orders provide that a supplementary LCM should be laid normally no later than two weeks after amendments are tabled.
The four-month delay in laying the supplementary LCM has considerably restrained our ability as a committee to scrutinise the amendments in a timely manner. We are disappointed that we had very limited time to consider the further supplementary LCM laid on 3 December, though we are grateful to the Business Committee for extending the reporting deadline to this morning. But, of course, the timescales were still extremely tight. Minister are you able to commit in future to laying a supplementary LCM no later than two weeks after relevant amendments to a Bill are tabled? Can you also commit to providing committees with sufficient time to consider and report on LCMs?
We are also concerned and disappointed that the Welsh Government does not have any control over when the Act comes into force. Instead, the Act confers powers on the Secretary of State to make commencement Orders. Likewise, the Welsh Ministers do not have any powers to make consequential amendments that may be necessary under the Bill. These powers are conferred on the Secretary of State only. Welsh Ministers should have the power to make delegated legislation in Wales in devolved areas, not the Secretary of State. So, Minister, are you able to seek amendments to the Bill so that Welsh Ministers have equivalent powers to the Secretary of State to pass secondary legislation?
We are further concerned that the law on leasehold reform will not be as accessible to the people of Wales as it should be. Minister, you told the committee that the Bill represents the first, but significant, step towards the implementation of broad-ranging reforms for leasehold as a tenure, and that another UK Bill dealing with reforms will be introduced. You also told us that some other important areas of leasehold reform will be taken forward on a Wales-only basis in the planned building safety Bill during this Senedd term. Surely, making these reforms through multiple pieces of legislation will reduce the accessibility of Welsh law. So, Minister, are you able to outline how you will ensure that the law in Wales is as accessible as it should be?
Llywydd, despite these concerns that I have just outlined, most members of the committee see the benefits of applying these reforms to Wales as soon as possible, and of having an England and Wales approach. But, as I mentioned, the absence of scrutiny did mean that we were not able to put assertions to the test as we would have liked to have done. I would therefore encourage the Welsh Government to ensure that committees have the necessary time and resources to be able to play a meaningful role in the legislative consent process. Diolch yn fawr.

Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee next, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Llywydd. We issued our reports on the first memorandum and the supplementary memorandum, memorandum No. 2, last week. Unfortunately, there wasn't enough time for us to consider memorandum No. 3 and report on it.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I'd better point out at the beginning of this that I sometimes feel like a legalistic and constitutional Jeremiahsometimes, but we do want to make clear as a committee that our intention is not only to signal where we have concerns, but also, constructively highlight areas which may well help avoid these regular challenges from the committee, some of which are now following a clear and predictable pattern.
A memorandum is the basis on which the Senedd's consent for a Bill is sought, of course. Unfortunately, we concluded that this particular memorandum was not fit for purpose and fell below the standard we would consider to be acceptable. Amongst other things, there is little information to explain how the provisions relate to leasehold reform in Wales, which is a key point. Within the memorandum, there are continual references to the powers of the Secretary of State, despite this being a devolved area. While the memorandum acknowledged that the Welsh Government would indeed be seeking comparable executive powers for the Welsh Ministers, little attempt was made to explain which powers of the Secretary of State this would apply to.
So, as a result, we recommended that, in advance of today's debate, the Minister should explain why the memorandum lacks a Wales focus in explaining the relevant clauses, all of which fall within the Senedd's legislative competence, and why the memorandum did not refer to wider aspects of the leasehold reform programme and its relevance to Government thinking on the use of a UK Bill. So, unfortunately, the committee still does not find the Government's response wholly satisfactory. We do understand the Bill is to be made on an England and Wales basis, but the memorandum is about circumstances in Wales, and that needed to have been the focus. The explanation as to why matters of competence were not adequately addressed in the memorandum is not wholly persuasive to us.
Now, the Bill was amended in the UK Parliament in July 2021, to provide the Welsh Ministers with the regulation-making powers I've previously referred to. The Minister did respond to questions we raised about these powers on 16 November, but we waited until 26 November to receive, as the other Chair has mentioned, memorandum No. 2 explaining these amendments. This is some four months after the amendments were agreed in the UK Parliament. So, there are two issues to unpick here—the delay in the laying of memorandum No. 2, and as I will come on to, the regulation-making powers that are to be retained by the Secretary of State. So, the delay, for whatever reason, in conveying crucial information to the committee until late in the consent process, has greatly reduced the amount of time we have to effectively scrutinise the Welsh Government's decision to seek consent to legislate by means of a UK Government Bill in a devolved area, which is regrettable, as we think that earlier sight may have helped us and the Government.
Turning now to the issue of the regulation-making powers delegated to Welsh Ministers, while most of them were extended to them in July, some were retained by the Secretary of State. The Minister's explanation for this approach did not convince the committee, who will argue that the Welsh Ministers should be provided with all the regulation-making powers in devolved areas, and not retained by the Secretary of State, even with the Minister's reasoning that they may be exercising frequently, or because of an expectation that policy would not diverge between Wales and England. Providing the Welsh Ministers with all the powers would ensure that all regulations relating to leasehold reform, as it applies in Wales, will also be bilingual and subject to scrutiny by the Senedd. It will also avoid having some regulations made by Welsh Ministers, and some by the Secretary of State, which, again, does not make Welsh law more accessible.
We also considered that the Welsh Ministers should have control over the commencement of the leasehold reform provisions for Wales following Royal Assent. Such an approach would not prevent the same provisions being commenced in Wales at the same time as they are commenced in England; it would simply mean that the executive power and the scrutiny rested here in Wales. We therefore recommended that before seeking the Senedd's consent for the Bill, the Minister should ensure that it is amended to ensure that the Welsh Ministers have all the regulation-making powers in devolved areas. And we still find it hard to understand why this recommendation has not been accepted. Perhaps it would have been, we would suggest, if there was a more timely laying of memorandum No. 2, and a chance to act earlier in response to committee recommendations laid earlier subsequently.
So, the committee considers that permitting the Secretary of State to make regulations in a devolved area is an unwelcome development, and it's one that potentially sets a troubling precedent. Because in so doing, the Welsh Ministers have not provided themselves with safeguards should the Secretary of State, either now or in the future, make regulations with which the Welsh Government do not agree.
Now, as we keep highlighting, and as the Minister appeared to acknowledge in evidence to the Local Government and Housing Committee, using a UK Government Bill to deliver legislation in a devolved area provides less opportunity for detailed scrutiny than using a Bill introduced into the Senedd. Members of the Senedd cannot, for example, engage with stakeholders and table amendments to test, challenge and influence the Welsh Ministers—this is a key tool of scrutiny. And moreover, fully protecting Welsh needs and interests through legislation is the function of the Senedd in devolved areas, rather than the Minister or her officials through inter-governmental relations.
And finally, Llywydd, we recommended that the Minister should explain how the approach adopted by the Welsh Government is consistent with its own principles for using UK Bills to legislate. Whilst the Minister did provide an explanation—and we thank her for that—her response raises further issues surrounding these principles, which our committee will look to examine further next year. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: On a brighter note, I welcome both the Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Bill and the LCM. Minister, over 1 million households in the UK are sold as leasehold, and this legislation will go some way—in fact, a long way—to help thousands of home owners caught in a leasehold trap. And I can say first-hand, having seen some of my residents, who put their name down for a lovely property, then bought the property, moved in the property, only to find out a few years later that they didn't actually own the land that the house was built on. Under the current law, many people face high ground rents, which, when combined with a mortgage, can make it feel like they are still paying rent on a property they own. We also know that escalating ground rents can also make it difficult for leaseholders to sell or even remortgage their property.
Now, according to research compiled by Propertymark in 2018, 93 per cent of survey respondents said that they would not purchase another leasehold property, such was the nightmare consequences many of them faced. A third said they were struggling to attract a buyer, because they simply did not own the freehold. Enforced across England and Wales, this positive change to the legislation, brought about by a Conservative Government in Westminster, will now mean that millions of leaseholders will be given the right to extend their lease by a maximum term of 990 years at zero ground rent. As such, approval for this LCM could certainly help them to save thousands of pounds a year, whilst also giving them peace of mind. For others, where ground rent is demanded as part of a new residential long lease, the fact that it will no longer be for more than one peppercorn per year is an important shift.
The Welsh Conservatives welcome the fact that this Bill will ban freeholders from charging administration fees for collecting peppercorn rent, meaning that future leaseholders will not be faced with financial demands for ground rent. We also welcome the fact that this LCM will increase accountability for leaseholders, by making provision for them to recover unlawfully charged ground rents through the leasehold valuation tribunal in Wales.
Now, I do acknowledge, and I respect, the concerns raised by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee over the memorandum laid by the Welsh Government in respect of the Bill, which they found not fit for purpose, and to have fallen below the standard considered acceptable. It is time to move on for these people who have found themselves caught in this trap. With the progressive and positive steps that I have just outlined, which were reached after active collaboration with stakeholders, I now call on other parties in this Senedd to join the Welsh Conservatives by voting in support of probably what are the most significant changes to property law in a generation. Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I want to note at the outsetthat Plaid Cymru will be voting against this motion as a matter of principle. The Government has now laid LCMs for 14 UK Bills within the first months of this Senedd. This is more than any other year with the exception of 2020. The number of LCMs coming before us is cause for concern. Every LCM cuts our powers as a Senedd and is an attack on Welsh democracy therefore.Two of this Senedd's committees have raised broad-ranging concerns about the documents attached to this memorandum, as the Minister has already noted, as have the Chairs.
Now, the Minister says that she doesn't want the people of Wales to be disadvantaged because it would take so long for Wales to develop our own legislation in this area, but why hasn't the Government done any work to that end already? Where does this argument leave the Senedd and the purpose of devolution itself? I am convinced that we should not give consent here today. I am dissatisfied with the inadequate system we have in dealing with this process. There wasn't sufficient time to scrutinise the Bill or the memorandum in the housing and local government committee, for example, and it's clear that the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee takes a very dim view of this memorandum, as we've already heard.
The Senedd hasn't had an opportunity to scrutinise the amendments to the Bill in any way, apart from a brief discussion here this evening. The decision of the Welsh Government to introduce the amendments to a Bill through the UK Parliament, rather than bringing forward its own Bill, means that Members and stakeholders haven't had an opportunity to make any recommendations let alone changes to legislation that impacts Wales and that is devolved.
Wales has its own voice and we have this Senedd as a forum to express that voice, but this fundamental right to our democracy is being denied to the people of Wales this evening. If things go on like this, then it raises a question about the future of devolution. It would suit Westminster down to the ground to have no more than a working group, consenting to this legislation rather than a powerful democratic body, creating legislation in response to problems here in Wales.
I'm particularly concerned that the Bill sets a dangerous precedent by providing powers to the Secretary of State rather than to Welsh Ministers. Consent to this will mean that Welsh Ministers will have no powers to make consequential amendments, which will be necessary, or could be necessary, under clause 21, for example. This is a clear example of how we will have lost powers here in Wales. It's only the Secretary of State in London who has the powers to make regulations in terms of the form and content of notices, in one of the clauses. There is no reference as to how it's relevant to Wales, as has already been noted by previous speakers.
And finally, Welsh Ministers will have no control as to when the Act comes into force. Minister, do you believe that this situation is acceptable? You are arguing that we need consistency between England and Wales, but, Minister, don't you believe that this argument sets a dangerous precedent when it comes to devolution? We are seeing devolution in demise and not only is there no fight, but the Government here seems to be encouraging that. That's not my definition of standing up for Wales. In light of the lack of appropriate scrutiny, the number of LCMs that we've seen, the inadequacy of supplementary documents and the very real threat to this Senedd and the devolution settlement by transferring powers to UK Ministers in devolved policy areas, I would encourage fellow Members to vote against this motion this evening. Thank you.

The Minister for Climate Change to reply to the debate—Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I thank all the Members for their contributions on this. Just to answer one of the particular things that was raised that I didn't cover in my opening remarks, I do understand the frustration of Members on the timing of the supplementary LCMs. We originally thought that we could table a single, supplementary LCM in relation to this Bill that covered all the amendments made to it, which would have been much more useful to Senedd Members than multiple supplementary LCMs dealing with different amendments at different times. However, unfortunately, there was a much longer delay in the tabling of subsequent UK Government amendments than had been expected at the outset. In the end, they did not happen until 30 November, by which point I had already decided to issue the delayed supplementary LCM, so it was just caught up in the timescale. I’m very happy to work, as Huw suggests, with the committees on the process to make it more streamlined and to understand from the committees whether a stream of individual LCMs on each individual amendment is more helpful in the end than attempting to consolidate them.
In terms of the three regulation powers that Members have mentioned, excluding those relating to amendments that have not been delegated, I am content that they are not critical in any way to the effective operation of the legislation. The three are a non-delegated power for the prescription of notices to be used in relation to the exemption of business leases from the legislation. It is very difficult to understand how we would ever prescribe a different notice in Wales for this purpose. It’s a very technical matter. The second is for regulations to be made amending the definition of home finance plan leases, which are exempted from the Bill. There are no current plans to use this in England, and there’s no reason why we ever would in Wales. And the last one is the power to make consequential amendments. That’s not at all unusual, and when legislation's made by the Senedd, it often includes the power for Welsh Ministers to make consequential changes to other non-devolved UK legislation. So, I don’t think that’s of any real significance, far from the significance accorded to it by occasional Members.
In the end, Llywydd, I appreciate very much the concerns that Members have raised, particularly about the amount of time for scrutiny. We will certainly want to work with the committees to ensure that they have the maximum amount of time available to them. But, in the end, this Bill is fundamentally good legislation that addresses obvious unfairnesses in the system. There is, of course, much more to do, and, just in answer to one question from John Griffiths, we understand that the UK Government intends to bring forward the next leasehold reform Bill in the next parliamentary session. There is much more to do, but this is a vital first step in securing fairness for leaseholders in Wales, and I urge all Members to support the motion. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? I'm just waiting for a moment to see if I see a Member objecting. You may show your hand. [Objection.] Yes, I see that there is an objection, and I will, therefore, defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

That bring us to voting time, and we will now take a short break to prepare for the votes. A short break.

Plenary was suspended at 19:32.

The Senedd reconvened at 19:37, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

13. Voting Time

The firs vote this evening is on item 8, the Curriculum for Wales relationships and sexuality education code. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. One Member is yet to vote. If he is having difficulty, I will take his vote orally.

Mark Drakeford. If Mark Drakeford can be unmuted, I could ask for his vote to be cast orally because it hasn't been cast electronically.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd—[Inaudible.]

How do you vote, Mark Drakeford?

Mark Drakeford AC: In favour.

Thank you. Close the vote. In favour 42, no abstentions, 16 against, and the motion is agreed.

Item 8. The Curriculum for Wales – Relationships and Sexuality Education Code: for 42, against 16, abstain 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next item is item 12, the legislative consent motion on the Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Bill, and I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Julie James. Open the vote. In favour 45, one abstention and 12 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 12. Legislative Consent Motion on the Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Bill: for 45, against 12, abstain 1
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

That brings today's voting to a close. Thank you to you all, and good evening.

The meeting ended at 19:41.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Sam Rowlands: Will the First Minister outline the current challenges for recruitment into the NHS in North Wales?

Mark Drakeford: The Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board currently employs historically high numbers of staff, despite a challenging recruitment market nationally and internationally. This means more doctors, nurses, allied health professionals and healthcare scientists delivering services for the people of north Wales.

Rhun ap Iorwerth: How many mobility and habilitation experts are there in Wales to support visually impaired children and young people?

Mark Drakeford: This information is not held centrally.